School and poo withholding - wondering about SEN

[longestlurkerever]

I've posted a few times before about difficulties with my dd's behaviour and poo withholding but only recently have I begun to wonder if there's a connection and I'd be grateful for any thoughts or experiences.

My dd1 (4, Aug birthday) started school in September.she also has a new sibling born in June. She likes school and is making friends and learning a lot but she's been anxious and withdrawn when I collect her. She's not wanted to do her normal activities and has been very clingy towards me.

It could just be a normal reaction to school starting and a new sibling but I have had feedback from school that she's "a nightmare " over carpet time and following instructions and certainly I find discipline a real challenge. She's not aggressive or disruptive so we don't have issues around big things like hitting or damaging things but she doesn't follow instructions about things like "put your shoes on, don't open that cupboard, get down from there". It's constant and exhausting. and she will interrupt constantly even when told not to. She doesn't really respond to being told off or threats. I generally have to rely on her good nature to do the right thing rather than be able to make her. It's worse when she's tired but it's been almost constantly like this since she started school. Over the holiday her behaviour has been much improved except for three days when she had slightly later bedtimes.

The poo issue is that she withholds her poo till she's constipated and loses the ability to recognise when she needs to go. She's on laxatives at the moment and I'm hopeful we can get her back on track as we had this issue when she started pre school too and eventually, after a lot of hard work and rewards, cracked it.

I've recently noticed that she has the same vacant expression and distraction techniques when I'm trying to get her to poo as when I'm trying to tell her off or get her concentrate on writing or reading.

The Dr agrees the withholding is anxiety related. What I'm not sure about is if her anxiety is a normal response to a Summer born child starting school and adjusting to a new sibling or if there's something underlying making school particularly stressful for her. She's always been fine (almost exceptionally happy and confident) in a range of childcare settings but both pre school and school have been night adjustments because of their expectations about listening and conformity.

I posted on the special needs board about adhd as I'd read there was a link with constipation and apparently it can present differently in girls as inattention rather than hyperactivity (though she can be hyperactive when tired and talks incessantly) but the two replies I got suggested asd instead.

There's family history of both adhd and asd but I don't recognise her as having asd traits. She adores imaginative play and isn't fazed by stimulus. It's more concentration and authority that seem to unsettle her.

I don't know what to do. I'm fully aware she might just be behaving badly and the responsibility rests with me for getting her to listen at school, but I don't want to let her down if there is something I should be exploring.

I need to talk to school about the constipation and accidents anyway, and they're always trying to talk to me about her listening but in a frustratingly round about way and always in front of dd so I'm wondering about asking their opinion about adhd or similar but they've previously been quite patronising about my parenting responsibility and quite dismissive about my concerns over her mental wellbeing and anxiety so I don't really know how best to approach it. The talk about the toileting is urgent so I may need to separate the two.

Sorry if this is confusing. Happy to answer any questions

[Eminado]

So pleased it went well.

[tobysmum77]

In terms of the behaviour it sounds to me like she knows what is expected but doesn't like the TA and enjoys winding her up. At the next parents evening I would be requesting an appointment with just the teacher. TAs don't normally go do they....?

My dd sounds similar in some ways. She's a bit like me tbh doesn't like being told what to do. Of course she has to learn to conform and fit it with society but in some ways it is a strength imo. There will be occasions in the future when we will be delighted our dds aren't easily led and malleable.

[Kleinzeit]

Glad it went well

[longestlurkerever]

Thanks all, it went well. They were reassuring about how content she seems at school, friendships etc, and say her behaviour us improving. Sen are not on their radar for her and they think she's very intelligent but they weren't dismissive and will mention to SENCO.

Best of all they said all the right things about the poo issue and I'm confident they'll handle things professionally and discreetly. Such a breath of fresh air after nursery's poor handling of the same issue.

So I'm no further forward with the behaviour stuff but am feeling reassured about her future and at least I can bear it in mind. That dh seems to have got through life with adhd is reassuring in itself, as the more he has read in the last few days the more he thinks he does still have traits.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to post and I'll update if anything else happens.

[Smudge588]

I don't know about the other stuff but my DS withheld his poos at school in reception. It also coincided with a new baby too. It's difficult to solve because once it's a habit it becomes hard for them to poo properly and once the stool is very compact, watery poo leaks round the sides and causes an 'accident'. With my DS he became really embarrassed by the accidents so withheld even more and it became a vicious circle. Best way we found was to play it down, increase the fibre in his diet and it passed.

[gandalf456]

Without mincing my words, she sounds a bitch. You'll find that, with some teachers and TAs, neither you nor your children will gel with them and that'll bring out the worst in them. So, it probably isn't all your DD's fault. I hope the meeting goes well. If you approach it in a problem solving way, it'll be fine. You are not in court up on a charge. If you find the teacher defensive and you get nowhere, you can always go to the Head or take it further, if necessary. But, chances are, they'll want to find a solution as much as you.

[Eminado]

Wow that is really rude!! I would mention that today but i am pregnant and probAbly a bit sensitive

[longestlurkerever]

Many thanks Gandalf. The teaching assistant did use the words "she's a nightmare" which I was upset about. I think the teacher would have been more tactful, though at parents evening she did say "we were just talking about dd's stubborn personality" to the TA, to which I did think"steady on", esp when the TA rolled her eyes and said "I'll say". She's a bit battery but wasn't really joking

[gandalf456]

My daughter had this at the same age. I wish I'd known how common it was back then as I was so worried. Thankfully, it did resolve itself and it did coincide with a new baby and new school, too. So, yes, definitely anxiety related. My advice re the pooing would be to relax totally over it because it will be OK. It is very hard when you get people's comments, though - especially if you're struggling with behaviour, too.

Interestingly, my DD has problems with attention but never enough to be massively disruptive at school (she is 11). The main issue is school work and home work, which she gets majorly stressed over and this causes huge problems at home. We've had a couple of assessments but she's never been bad enough to warrant massive intervention and so we were discharged.

It might not be a clinical problem but simply something she finds difficult. I find professionals (rightly so) are often reluctant to diagnose but it might be helpful to partner up with the school and see how you can work together. i don't think it's helpful for them to say 'she's a nightmare' if those are the words they used because it will affect your confidence as a parent even more.

This is NOT your fault so you need to approach it that way and find a strategy that works. I find it very hit and miss with my DD (but not DS, aged 7, who responds to text book stuff, which is why I know it's not being an inadequate parent) and it often takes ages for her to pass through each phase and I often end up going back to square one even when I think something's worked. I think some children are just easier to parent than others.

[Eminado]

Good luck Longest I really hope it goes well.

[longestlurkerever]

Meeting her teacher at 4. Eek, nervous

[Kleinzeit]

That’s interesting – your DH is the other way round from my DS Varying the tone actually distracts him. People do vary! We’re all big ones for written lists in my house and with DS we used visual lists – for his before-school morning routine DS had pictures with Velcro backs for the things he needed to do (get dressed, brush teeth, coat on, backpack…) I’d stick them up in a row and he’d pick each one off when it was done.

We went out with a couple of boys yesterday and I noticed she tantrums less than they do.

I used to wish my DS would zone out or just cry. Under stress his go-to response was to lash out. Maturity improved this a lot but it was grim at the time.

[longestlurkerever]

Mostly in the poo issues noteven and in being generally more emotionally sensitive, tearful etc. She's normally so confident and cheerful. Actually I do think she's got reasonable empathy - she gets v worried about scenes in books or on TV when people are ill etc or when cinderella's stepsisters tore her mother's dress. She won't watch that film now, and makes me skip through frozen until they're friends again. It's a bit extreme tbh but maybe all 4yos are like that.

Have just had a lightbulb moment. Dh does the exact same zoning out thing when I try and give him a list of instructions. he said I speak like he's not listening in a monotone and he zones out. It really pisses me off as he quite clearly isn't listening but perhaps he's having processing difficulties too. If I break the instructions up and keep the tone varied he takes it in better. As I said he was diagnosed with adhd as a child though is very intelligent with the same ridiculouslying good memory as dd and an exceptional iq.One to try with dd I guess.

I am appreciating her more today though. We went out with a couple of boys yesterday and I noticed she tantrums less than they do.

[Noteventhebestdrummer]

How does her anxiety manifest itself?

Have you tried something like pasta in the jar rewards for doing what she's told the first time?

[Kleinzeit]

It’s good that your DD is more socially aware than my DS . You’re right that there is overlap between many of these conditions and it can take an expert to decide which (if any!) is the best fit. It’s not so much the exact diagnosis as the investigation process which could help pin down what your DD is struggling with – whether it is mainly anxiety or whether she has a problem with communication, or planning, or sensory, or focus. It was a real eye-opener to me to see which kinds of communication my DS simply couldn’t manage when the language therapist tried them on him.

My thought is, see what the school think. If they don’t really know what’s going on with your DD and if they are struggling to manage her then it might be worth going to your GP and asking for a referral.

And actually, the responsibility doesn’t rest with you to get her to listen in school. You can be supportive but there is no magic that you can do at home which is going to make her listen in school! That is very much the school’s responsibility.

[bicyclebell]

My son witholds his poo too. He's 8, but he also has cerebral palsy - v v mildly.

It has stressed me out sooo much over the years. The best method I found was to make sure that he did a poo every night before bed. My son responds to rules.

He's like your daughter in that he is not in any way fearful of authority. Unless I shout very loudly. But if I make something a rule and say this is what is going to happen from now on and we'll do this every day ... he likes that. And that is how I've managed to stop him being constipated.

My daughter is 4. She has no special needs. She poos fine - but would never go at school, and usually waits until she's at home, whenever we're out.

She also is going through a phase of not being bothered by authority and totally ignoring me when I ask her not to do stuff. In fact a lot of the behavioural stuff that I've worried about with my son and connected to his CP over the years is now coming out in my daughter.

And I'm realising that so much of it is normal development that they will pass through.

[longestlurkerever]

Eminado, I'm not sure at all! I'm flip flopping around all over the place between thinking she's just like any other four year old and not. The reason I've suddenly thought about it is because I found out dh was diagnosed with adhd as a child and I read there was a link with constipation so I started to wonder. The blank looks worried me but I've also read that anxiety can present like adhd. She has been really difficult when tired lately but I've no idea if she's just tired. Tbh there seem to be such extreme variants with all these diagnoses that I'm not even sure how a diagnosis would help.

[longestlurkerever]

Gosh my head is spinning with the possibilities. Thanks so much for listening and replying. She does talk about people in the playground, yes, and who is friends with whom. Not so much how they feel but certainly what they like. I don't know how clumsy she is relative to other kids her age. She does spill and drop things and I'm always knocking things over myself.

[Eminado]

I am really sorry in advance as i am completely ignorant to SEN issues but I stumbled on this thread and I was just so struck by what you wrote.

I am wondering (like I said please excuse me) why you are so sure there is SEN at play?

Not attacking you, am only asking because it's like you are describing my DD!! I've not been concerned at all but maybe I should be?

Eg you say
"I was thinking tonight of another example - teeth brushing. I have to ask, insist, shout, cajole her to get her to open her mouth for long enough."

Arent all kids like this? I mean - they know it's bed time and they obv want to play more. Maybe I am being naive but I can't say I know many kids who just obey all instructions on demand

You sound like a brilliant and attentive mum, btw. Hope i've not derailed your thread; I am certainly reading with interest.

[Kleinzeit]

If she is very articulate, does she talk about her own feelings and other people’s feelings? Who is happy or sad or angry? Does she talk about social relationships – who plays with who? Who likes what? Because my DS was highly articulate, confident and socially outgoing but he never said anything at all about those things. (He does have an ASC diagnosis now and even now aged 17 they are not things he is easily aware of.)

Also the fact that she doesn’t seem fazed or frightened by a scolding might be due to a mismatch between inner feelings and her facial expression. Her anxiety might actually go up a lot and she might even get panicky and irrational when she is told off but she may not show itin that way.

I dunno about the tooth brushing - this isn't something my DS had problems with so anything I say would only be a wild guess.

[3littlefrogs]

Do you think there might be an issue with the toilets at school?
Cold? Smelly? Lack of privacy?

Could she be nervous about asking the teacher if she can go?

[TaliZorah]

She's always been complimented on how articulate she is and her extensive vocabulary

OP this was me. I was very bright and had a really good vocab that was always commented on, but I was a very strong willed child and just completely resisted authority.

My mum said I was not naughty but "hard work". Always asking questions, wanting to know everything, doing what I wanted etc.

Like I said my diagnoses are anxiety and dyspraxia. Is she disorganised? Clumsy?

[longestlurkerever]

Thanks Kleinzitt, that's really helpful. She doesn't have any particular behavioural quirks or ocd tendencies and is really very confident and sociable. I've also never known her get stressed by noise or stimulus, that's why I thought not asd, but maybe my understanding isn't very nuanced. She's always been complimented on how articulate she is and her extensive vocabulary so it's hard to imagine her having difficulties processing what I say, but perhaps she does. I was thinking tonight of another example - teeth brushing. I have to ask, insist, shout, cajole her to get her to open her mouth for long enough. this has been every night since she first got teeth. It's like she's being deliberately difficult about it but why would she be? She doesn't ultimately mind me brushing them once I've finally got her to open her mouth.

[TaliZorah]

Dyspraxic

[TaliZorah]

I had those issues as a child, not pooing but having no fear/recognition of authority and just doing what I wanted.

I have anxiety that started in childhood so it could be that, Im also dyspraxia and have always just been a bit of an anarchist