Sorry, long and not very cheerful, but...

[WorriedAboutABoy]

...I have had a terrible morning! I went to DS1's Easter party at his nursery (pre-school, he's 3yo). DS1 behaved atrociously throughout, and none of the nursery staff seemed at all surprised. He was rude, uncooperative, anti-social, didn't want to join in, bellowed things like "I don't like that stupid song" after all the children, parents and teachers had done songs/actions, and he had just shouted and refused to join in all the way through it, during the walk around the garden he deliberately went the wrong way and barged the other children...etc. I had to virtually drag him in and out of the building/garden, he got into the doorway and stopped dead, so that no-one could get past, he did the same thing at the gate, he whinged and screamed incessantly, he wouldn't put his shoes on, he wouldn't take his coat off, he wouldn't go to the toilet, he wouldn't say please or thank you at the table and he screamed and roared while the other children were eating nicely.

His talking is more like a 6/7yo than than a 3yo, it's very noticeable (people are always stopping me in shops etc because they've heard him) and yet there is no work on the walls by him (I've been checking for a few weeks, and all the other children's seems to go up), none of the paintings are his (although he used to bring some home when he first started - he hasn't done so for ages), he's not in any of the photos up on the walls, he hadn't made a hat for Easter... please don't think I am bragging about his talking, I really am not, but I don't know what to do with him. He's found the group/carpet times difficult right from the start, he runs off to be on his own or shouts the teacher down, he finds joining in difficult and prefers being on his own or one to one with an adult.

I've just tried again to sit with him and have a quiet, gentle talk with him about his behaviour, but I can't even get him to make eye contact. Even when he isn't being naughty he doesn't really do eye contact, he just pulls faces, looks at my mouth, looks past me; if I try and get him to look at my eyes when I'm talking to him he pushes his face right up to mine so that he can't focus on my eyes. Am I being paranoid?

I can't understand why he behaved like this today. He loves nursery, he likes singing and parties and all that kind of thing usually. He does know how to behave, I'm not a tyrant, don't smack/bawl at him, but I am quite strict about manners and behaviour, being kind to others etc, and so is dh. He had plenty of sleep last night and he knew what was happening today. None of the other children behaved like that. It was just so embarrassing and horrible, the staff were just rolling their eyes as if to say "Oh, it's him again" and the other parents just kept staring at me as though I had two heads. And at the end, when all the other children went off happily with their parents clutching their hats and things that they'd made, DS1 just screamed and struggled "I don't want to go home, I won't, I'm not going to, I don't like it at home, I don't want to go with you" all the way down the street. I had really been looking forward to his first Easter party, seeing him enjoy it with all the other children. I have tried gently asking him how he was feeling and what went wrong, but he just blows raspberries in my face and says "I don't like joining in" and either runs away or changes the subject or does something aggressive.

Am I being paranoid, or am I somehow doing a crap job?

[threebob]

Google gifted children and you will find some stuff that may be reassuring.

Ds is a good talker and also never has any work on the walls. When I ask him why he says "I was too busy - I was making the longest bridge in New Zealand with the blocks". Obviously it would be good if one of the staff took a picture of that bridge so that he could have some work up (think how all those sculptors would have felt if someone had just gone "that's nice dear, fancy making an Easter picture?"

Fortunately in NZ we have an early years curriculum that allows for free choice of play and learning up to age 5. So apart from the odd compulsory thing (like making a place mat for his meal), he is allowed and encouraged to play the mad scientist.

As for his behaviour - he has no idea why he was as he was, and no idea why he should care.

Sorting out mat time behaviour is something the nursery should be working on, ask them what they are doing. Ideas would be a set of cards to remind him what to do and when, having a start and end song, so he knows what he's up for, and gentle sung reminders rather than hollering his name sharply.

[mymama]

Wanted to add to my post that my ds did just enough craft to make it into his scrapbook home. There was not enough left over to go on the walls!!

[mymama]

Sorry you had such a rough morning. I can't really comment on his behaviour as I have not experienced that. My ds didn't have any artwork on the walls at nursery either and didn't seem to have his photo anywhere. I was a little upset about it so I asked the reason why and I found out that my ds just didn't enjoy doing craft/painting etc. He happened to be absent on the day of the photo and they hadn't realised he was missed. My ds is now in preparatory at school and still does not particpate in craft/painting etc if he does not have to. He would rather build blocks and play in home corner. So there may be a simple explanation for your son's missing craft. My ds is very excitable and can be a little disruptive at times in class and hates sitting still. So I have made a point to walk to school of a morning to decrease some of his energy levels and make sure he eats a wholesome breakfast without any added sugar etc. I have also just started him on Efalex fish oils to try to increase his concentration levels and calm him a little.

[MagicGenie]

Hi WAAB. I wasn't surprised to read that your little boy had this 'incident' with the woman at nursery. Re; his behaviour at the party - defence can sometimes be the best form of attack, iykwim.

Apart from being bright, he's obviously a sensitive little soul - particularly him being aware/unsettled at the fact that he's been angry lately and doesn't fully understand why. How amazing is it that he can feel and articulate that at his age?!! :)

That said, it might be appropriate to keep talking about recent events/the way he feels with him - until you feel he's made his peace with it...? Working it through in his own head might help him draw a line under what happened and he might be more inclined to start afresh after the break. (Sorry - don't mean to sound all Trisha on you there!

Your chat with the headmaster sounds like it will also hit the mark. You DO NOT need make excuses for your son's behaviour; they DO need to explain what's been going on.

Sending him a big cuddle - he sounds lovely!

[SleepyJess]

Oh dear. Sorry.

[SleepyJess]

I am just going to post this \link{http://www.metagifted.org/topics/metagifted/indigo/introduction.html\link} and then slip quietly away back to what you ladies may probably now consider to be my strange world or pychic phenomena, crystal balls and joss sticks! (I just thought you might like a look :))

[Sparklemagic]

what a lovely post caththerese!

I have to say, have no idea at all if my DS will be clevr or gifted, but blimey, there are loads of similarities between my DS and how you describe yourself and your DD. Particularly the being his own person thing and marching to the sound of his own drum. He is in a 'no' phase at the moment, but your post made me look back and realise that actually he has always been like this; refusing to conform sums him up completely.
He lives in his imagination completely and creates games and scenarios all day every day.

However he's certainly not precocious - still doesn't recognise letters that reliably and still draws in a scribble (he's 3.5).

It's fascinating to see how our little non-conformists develop though!

[Caththerese1973]

No, not paranoid: you have a clever little eccentric on your hands! My mother constantly regales me with stories about my anti-social and bullying behaving at around same age, and at school I was also quite a loner, always liked to read.....point being (don't wish to brag) but I have always been 'very much my own person' (as my grade 2 teacher tactfully put it) and was considered 'gifted' throughout school. I now have a PhD and lecture in English Lit. I have had my share of problems....I identify with your little boy, because he sounds very much like myself at the same age, going on my mum's accounts (which are limited: I seem to have been such a difficult child that she's blocked a lot of things out. My own dd was late to talk, and whe I got concerned about this and asked Mum when I started taliking, she could not remember....the only 'milestone' she recalls is that I could allegedly walk when I was 9 months!)
He's obviously a bright kid, and that's not always a great thing on all levels. He might be very sensitive, might be prone to depression when he's adolescent (sorry: don't wish to make you MORE anxious). But my point is that he's SMART, and sensitive, ad may not always want to conform. He might just have an instinctive resistance towards conforming. I know I always did (ie, when I was designated as 'gifted')
And btw, I would NOT, if I were you, go down the path of labelling him as gifted when he's of school age, if his teachers want to take him down that road. I remember my grade 2 teacher used to let me read instead of doing maths when all the other kids were doing maths, because I was considered very advanced for my age in the verbal/reading dept and she felt that should be maximized. Result of this was that I missed out on feeling normal, was ostracised, and to this day cannot do long division to save my life!
Don't worry about his odd mannerisms, weird behaviours, facial expressions etc. My mum was so worried about me when I was seven that she took me to paediatrician and apparently (cannot remember the incident) I kept pulling bizarre faces and talking in babble and the good doc was convinced I was retarded, despite Mum's protestations about how I was 'top of the class' in reading etc. I remember clearly as a toddler being very mean to my mother: slapping and pinching her, I was incredibly hard to toilet rain; resisted cuddles yet used to insist that she sit outside my bedroom door every night until I went to sleep!
I love my mother dearly, of course: clearly I'm not autistic or Asperger's....some kids do march to the beat of a different drummer (if you'll forgive the cliche)but it's not necessarily a bad thing, as hard as it is for Mum at the time. My own dd seems quite similiar to me ....didn't talk until two and then suddenly started talking in sentences: hassles me constantly (I WISH I could get her to shut up sometimes, which is ironic when I consider how anxious I used to be about late speech!), is aggressive with other kids to an embarrassing extent: says she likes her day-carer but thinks the other kids are 'silly and horrible' and claims they 'fight with her' (I know she fights with them....she won't share toys!). Won't dance with other kids, won't follow the herd, won't play on cue. Won't even talk on cue (ie: 'say bye to Auntie Barb': 'No! Don't like her!;) But on her own she's as happy as a clam.
Sorry: this has been a loooooong response, but I really can relate, and I want to tell you not to worry. Just love your little boy and if anyone has a go at him, tell them to shove it up their clacker. He's only 3, after all. Obviously, if he gets into lighting fires or tortuing animals when he's older, you might have something to worry about, but I doubt it will come to that. I think you have a lot to look forward to. He sounds like a very clever little fellow indeed.

[tigermoth]

just a very short message of support as you sound like a very caring and sensitive mother.

FWIW, my youngest son rarely had his work up on the nursery walls. He wasn't intereseted in craft or art work and,as it wasn't obligatory that he did any, he didn't do much. I don't think he was keen to see his work on the walls either so it wasn't an issue for him. Does you son actaully do much art work at nursery - is this important to him?

Not that I'm saying the nursery is good for him. I am surprised they are letting so much slip. Definitely talk to them - agree with all the good advice here.

The other thing, thinking of the easter party, both my sons at this age often played up/showed off/insisted on leaving the group to come to me when I was there watching them. I had this time and time again at sunday school and school events when they were very young. I too heve felt so embarrassed in front of the other parents. But speaking to teachers and helpers, they'd assure me my errant son was better behaved when I am not there. I used to tell them to let me know if my ds played up, but this rarely happened. I wonder if there might be some of this happening with your son especially as you say that he chooses to be good and knows how to behave at home?

[Enid]

try this:

\link{http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm\highly sensitive child}

[Tiggiwinkle]

WAAB-Perhaps if you do a little reading-there is lots of info on the internet (the National Autistic Society has a good site) and Tony Attwoods book on Asperger Syndrome is excellent as a starting point. You may find, as I did, that a lot of the things your DS does fit the criteria. You could then ask for a referral for an assessment. It really is better to get help sooner rather than later-my DS had an awful time when he moved up from reception to year 1, and because he had no diagnosis, no help was available.

[alardi]

i wondered about Asperger's too (though I have no personal experience of that condition). He does sound like he's very actively testing boundaries, too.

I wanted to say, too, though, he could still be in the 'normal' spectrum going by my children. For instance, DD is 4yo and wouldn't notice if any of her art work was or wasn't on the nursery wall -- she just isn't that aware, and sometimes she just doens't feel like doing it. Even when she's well-fed and rested she can still have a stupid paddy for the weirdest reasons, that's part of the age, I think.

DS1 never did any artwork for playgroup before he was 4; he was more interested in interactive games with other children. When he was 2 the nursery said they thought he had a problem with maths because he didn't join in with singing maths songs; now he's 6 and sings and does maths like a whiz.

I wondered if you misinterpretted the staff rolling eyes as criticism when really it was meant as sympathy? Were they trying to say "Isn't it awful when your child behaves like that?" Even the nicest, brightest and best-behaved children have bad days.

[WorriedAboutABoy]

Yes, it had occurred to me many times that he may have something on the autistic spectrum. My adoptive brother is autistic and it has niggled at me since ds1 was born... he was in intensive care when he was born and I have wondered whether that contributed to some sort of emotional dysfunction. It was always little things, like the fact that he never made eye contact while breastfeeding, or his body language, or the fact that he never asked for affection, even when hurt, I have had to teach him how to cuddle and sort of "train" him that cuddling and kisses are good. He is, in his way, very loving and giving (he brings me "breakfast" every morning from his wooden kitchen, and makes sure I dip my wooden mushroom into my wooden egg) but I've always felt there was something different about him. His talking really is exceptional, not just a bit but ridiculously different from other children of 3 - but he can't sing, he doesn't even try to undulate his voice, just talks - and yet he can recite every song/hymn/rhyme/story he has ever known. Since having ds2 I have been even more concerned really - ds2 is so affectionate and loving, so naturally keen on cuddles and eye contact.

I remember the first time ds1 reached out and touched me deliberately. We were on a train and dh and I had been bickering. ds1 was about 2, he reached out and touched my arm, I was so amazed. Obviously he had touched me before, I breastfed and I cuddled him all the time etc, but this was him touching me, deliberately. Ds2 is constantly pawing me and meddling with my fingers etc. It's just not the same.

I haven't allowed myself to look at this stuff before, I am quite confused and upset now, sorry if I am rambling.

[busybusybee]

Tiggiwinkle - Snap :o

[Tiggiwinkle]

Reading your posts WAAB, I wonder if you have considered Asperger Syndrome as a possible explanation? It is your mention of your DSs advanced speech which struck me, as children with AS can sound very "grown-up". It would also possibly account for his behaviour at the nursery concert. (My own DS has AS by the way, and I had a similar experience at a nursery Christmas "do"). Just a thought-dont want to worry you-but my DS was not finally diagnosed until he was 6, and I wish I had known sooner!

[busybusybee]

Worriedaboutaboy

You little boy sounds a bit like mine in some ways
My ds doesnt listen a lot of the time, runs about and jumps a lot! He talks constantly (advanced for his age) and asks questions constantly. In all it is as if he doesnt get how to join in like other children. He seems to find "normal" quite difficult. Although he isnt aggressive or disruptive at all

I agree that the nursery issue is a problem that needs looking into but I am also wondering if maybe your ds would benefit from a visit to a specialist (and i mean that in the nicest way possible)

I recently took my ds to see a peadiatrician (referral by our health visitor) who reassured me that no I am not a rubbish mum (as I often feel the way you are now) but that actually ds is mildly autistic! Which actually made me feel better in many ways, although I was upset too

Could it be that actually you are a fantastic mum and that your ds may actually have a special need that he needs help with???

[oops]

you sound like a lovely mum, your son is lucky to ahve somebody so strong and sensible.

I do hoep you manage to sort out some of the issues at nursery. Just talking about it will probably have helped your little boy.
I feel quite sad for him, he sounds a bit misunderstood.

HAve a happy easter and good luck on your return to the nursery.

[WorriedAboutABoy]

Thanks, everyone, yes I have talked to DH about it, he came home from work early and we managed to sneak a quick chat about it while ds1 was watching Bagpuss and ds2 was asleep :). I then finally managed to get ds1 to talk about it properly before he went to bed. He was in his pyjamas and was feeling a bit more relaxed, so we had a cuddle and after about half an hour of gentle skirting round the issue, we hit the problem. It happened via me asking loads of questions and eventually, when I said something like "Everyone likes you, you're such a gorgeous lovely boy.... do you think everyone likes you, ds1?" to which he put his head down and muttered "I don't think so..." and then proceeded to tell me that one of the ladies at nursery had pulled him rather roughly outside when he wanted to play inside (he was being naughty, as they were supposed to be outside, but she was rough and it upset him), she had got cross with him, and he felt that she didn't like him any more. After reassuring him that grown-ups sometimes get cross - like Mummy does - but it doesn't mean they don't like him, and another 20 minutes of coaxing, he told me about an incident last week where he got lost in the nursery garden, couldn't find his way and ended up having to be rescued by another of the teachers, but because he was upset and scared, he argued with her. It all sounds petty, but to him it is earth-shattering, he has been really frightened and he really needed to talk about it. I think that when he feels cornered or threatened he acts out, and they are not understanding that what they interpret as naughtiness/overconfidence is really just an anxious little boy. He has been at home with me since birth, he only started there in January, and he is still only 3. But unfortunately because of his advanced speech he comes across as precocious.

I do think there is some truth in the testosterone surge idea. He has been quite temperamental lately and I think it's as unsettling for him as it is for us. He sometimes tells me he wants to hit me because he feels cross.

It's the Easter holidays now, so we have a bit of time to work on him before he goes back. DH and I have agreed to concentrate on his self-esteem, lots of praise, doing jobs for Mummy/Daddy etc, while toughening up considerably on bad manners, interrupting and shouting etc.

I have also promised ds1 that when he goes back I will walk him around the nursery garden and make sure he knows how to get back to the nursery so that he can't get lost again.

I am planning to arrange a meeting with the headmaster and his teacher as soon as the term starts, to talk about his adjustment and the fact that he seems upset about this woman's handling of him, and to talk about the fact that he doesn't seem to be producing any work worthy of being sent home/displayed on the walls.

Sorry, this is ridiculously long, but you all know how HUGE it is when your precious child is unhappy (it's the first time for me!!)and although I'll probably look back and laugh when he's older, I could cheerfully throttle the cow who was rough with him and made him feel as though he wasn't likeable.

But on the whole I think we've got to the bottom of it and I am so relieved he felt able to talk to me about it, even if it did take some persuading.

[MagicGenie]

Did a bit of reading up on the testosterone surge and it does happen at 3/4. Totally agree with others that something's amiss on the nursery front, though.

Managed to have a chat about it with your DH?

[Sparklemagic]

I agree with most people who are saying talk to the Nursery! It's the perfect time - just ring up, tell them you were very surprised indeed at his behaviour as it is completely different from his normal self at home. It's time to get them to lay it on the line for you about whether he is like this usually; and what their strategies have been and will be to improve things for him.

I do feel for you but I think it's got to be probably a combination of just being three and the setting he is in. My DS has a term at a private nursery from which I moved him, and he has thrived big time in a new setting - so take heart, it can be done and sometimes is the best thing all round, to move them if the setting is the problem.

I was very interested to hear what magicgenie said about boys getting a surge of testosterone at this age - my DS has always been a whirlwind of energy, but in the last month or so (he's 3.5) he has become so violent, wanting to punch and hit and 'kill' things!!! So I definitely believe some of this behaviour you describe could be due to this phase they are in at this age!

However I strongly feel it shouldn't be beyond the nursery's capability to work with him in a way that makes him happy. Maybe he is having a phase of not wanting to join in so much - fine! My DS certainly is! but his pre-school have a way with him of exerting no pressure but talking to him lots about what they are doing and tell me he sometimes gets 'drawn in' despite himself. I don't worry about this, they are still very young and will get more into joining in later on when friendships start to matter a bit to them.

Funnily enough my DS is also very articulate and I find he gets on better with and gravitates towards older children who can talk to him on his own terms. This I think will also even out as other kids gain the speech skills.

Sorry it's long and rambling, just wanted to add my experience fwiw.

[footiemad]

W.A.A.B. Firstly you are not a bad mum {big hug] This sounds so much like i've been going through with my DS (now 7).
Similar situation at nursery.Found out through a friend what was going on at school!
He is v.bright and bored at school and needs things to do all the time,but the teachers just don't have the time,he is well behaved at home but silly at school (their words). Another mum in same class has exactly the same prob with her Ds,the're both top in class.
I've been in countless times and asked if my Ds can have extra work(his request).He can't wait to go into yr3 as he thinks it will be harder!!Go into see them and don't let them make you feel it's your fault,good luck.

[yellowmum]

I had a similar experience with my little girl at preschool, in that she started to misbehave and push other children, throw toys and so on. I just did not have any problems with her behaviour at home, she was very well behaved with other children at mums and toddlers and with friends, and I had even been complimented on how well she behaved, so this was a big shock, and very upsetting.

However, I think that probably she is quite a difficult child to handle, and I just didn't realise it - she is very bright and does get a fair bit of attention from me, but also I have had a very difficult son before her and compared to him, she's easy.

I realised that I am really practised in ignoring the bad and praising the good, distraction techniques, and so on, simply because my son was so difficult and I had to really think hard about how best to cope with him - I applied these techniques to my daughter almost without thinking about it. When I went into the preschool I could sort of see why she was reacting badly to them - their way of disciplining was perfectly ok for most children, but they didn't really handle her the same way as I do, in various ways. I also felt that she was a bit bored. She felt frustrated, and acted out by pushing other children and chucking things.

Like you, I felt rather judged, which was awful because she only misbehaved when she was with them! I also felt they just didn't like her very much, which was also awful: she has so many fantastic qualities but they weren't positive about her at all.

I ended up moving her to the same nursery my son went to, because I felt their approach suited him so well and so would also suit her. It seems to be going ok so far, touch wood. I just feel that you have to be on your child's side. Sometimes the fault is not with them, but the setting they're in just doesn't suit them. I was really reluctant to move her because of the disruption but you know your child best and if you can't sort it out with the nursery it might be worth considering. You have all my sympathy - I was really upset when this happened to me.

[pencil]

I would go in and see nursery and say how surprised you were at your sons behavior in school. You could then discuss how you handle him and question them further- was it a one of if not why hadn't mentioned it before?
If it wasn't how can you together make you boy happy with school, this would include display stuff etc.
I do hope you get this sorted out!
Chin up, your son needs you

[secur]

Sory I havn't read all posts so hope I am not repeating!

If the nursery have effectivly ostraciced him then something is badly worng, you cann't "punsih" a small boy by shutting him out - I am not surprised he does not want to join in - what is the point if everybody else gets teh special treatment and recognition. Not making an easter hat why on earth not, no matter how he behaved at this age he did not deserve to turn up to a party and be the onlyone who was singled out like that.

IMHO your problem is not your son bt your childcare and they either need to be changed or spoken to very strongly about your expectations from them.

When my daughter was at nursery there were two very "challenging" children who still are "challenging" many years later - but they worked very very hard to get things right, so much so that even my daughter used to come home talking about "I did painting, sandplay and XXX was really good today so he got a sticker on his special chart" - the other children were even proud when these boys achieved well.

I do hope you sort this out, I am sure your son is capable of anything with the right support so decide what you want and keep pushing until you get it - from them or someone else if it is neccesary.

[PinkTulips]

WAAB, as long as you know he can behave well then i'd be inclined to agree with the others and ask questions at the nursery. if his behaviour is often like this there then why haven't they talked to you about it? why aren't they putting his art up? it sounds like there could be a serious problem there and he just doesn't have any way of dealing with it besides acting out.

i'm so sorry you've had a crap day, hope things get better soon.