Violent, out-of-control 11-year-old

[Medea]

Ds is 11. Year 6 at a boys school, where he is quiet, gentle and well-behaved. He's been bullied intermittently over the years (boys have teased him verbally) but the school has always stepped in promptly and put a stop to it. He likes the school and hasn't wanted to be moved when I've suggested it. He is introverted but has 3 good friends. He's into maths and ICT. He needs to use a laptop for his work because of lack of coordination and 'processing delays.' He's a very bright child but lazy. I don't push him.

At home he is a nightmare. He is deeply jealous of his 8-year-old sister. I have never seen such intense sibling rivalry. Dd goes to school with scratches, bruises and black eyes (which she has been asked about at school). He can't go past her without hitting her. She is terrified of him (but nonetheless occasionally does the younger sister thing of winding him up, which I don't tolerate). He is convinced I love her better. I don't know how he can think this. If anything I have given him more attention over the years than I have given her.

He is violent with me: hitting, punching, slapping, hair-pulling, pushing (once into oncoming traffic), throwing objects at me such as heavy books. Over christmas he threatened me with a knife. Except for the knife incident, he does these things in public as often as he does them in the home.

He is extremely tall and strong for his age. He is the tallest in his year and almost as tall as I am and over 100 pounds. Restraining him is almost impossible. In fact his father recently developed a hernia, which I suspect is a result of physically lifting him and off me and dd when he is walloping us. We are gentle people and he has not 'learned' violence off of us.

He is never violent to anyone else except his 3 closest family members: his father, his sister and me. He was a dream child from the ages of 3 to 7. This troubling behaviour has been going on, with increasing severity, since he was about 8.

We have gone to the GP. We have been in family counselling for 1 year. Ds hates going. He hardly talks to the therapist, who has examined the home life and doesn't find anything too problematic with our limit-setting and discipline strategies. She doesn't know what to suggest, except to keep ds in therapy in the hopes of some break-through.

When he started complaining of mild headaches, it gave me leverage to ask for a scan. The doctor herself suggested there could be a physiological problem, like a brain tumour. The scan was negative. But the neurologist who ordered the scan said ds needs to be seen by a psychiatrist and perhaps, too, an autism specialist. I explained that ds is empathic, sensitive and funny and that I doubted he was ASD. She said that some children on the 'spectrum' show atypical features of autism.

After 3 years of this I feel defeated, powerless and terrified of my son. It has depressed me, and his father too. I have been wondering if I should move out with my daughter temporary, before ds accidentally puts her in hospital, just until we can find a way to help him. It can't be good for her mental health, to grow up in this hellish environment. I can't imagine she has a single happy childhood memory. But if I left it would probably be ds's biggest nightmare. But I have a responsibility to dd too; she needs to be protected.

I wonder if anyone else has experienced anything similar?

[macroberts]

Hi

I am following up to see if things have improved.

My DS1 flipped one fine day and is getting more and more aggresive. Last week be pushed me and attempted to hit me with a knife sharpner - things are escalating. Am feerfull it might be the knife the next time.

The change in behaviour has been sudden and we are finding it very difficult to cope. He is struggling at shool as well academically and is often in detentions.

Just want to see if there is light at the end of this very depressing and miserable tunnel.

[bubblyred]

I agree with litchick you need to get others involved. What you first have to do is go to your doctors and demand to be referred to the paediatrician, and keep on until you get an appointment. SS are not there to judge you they will be there to help.

[Medea]

sorry, I posted before previewing and accidentally struck out a whole passage...

[Medea]

Thanks everyone for these further comments and for your concern

& maryz, big thanks for your long post. I feel like your ds and my ds are very similar. Everything you saye.g. about the lack of 'range' of emotions and the being either a '0' or a '10'is familiar. In fact I have sometimes wondered if my ds is at high risk for drug abuse: drugs can be a (temporary) way out of an unpleasant state of mind.

We are looking into sending him to boarding school. He is keen on the idea. (I never thought I could even entertain the idea of boarding school for my children, but parenting is full of surprises.) He'd go at age 13. It might be the right solution for him: structured, busy, away from his sister.

Meantime the referral for the psych has gone through, and we are waiting for the appointment.

[Ripeberry]

There is something wrong with him mentaly. You and the daughter need to move out for her own safety. Sounds like he only feels truly 'confident' with the people he loves and his feelings overwhelm him into being violent towards the people he loves the most.
They do say Love and Hate are always together.
Hope they find a way of treating him...for all your sakes

[tryingtobemarypoppins2]

(((((Hugs))))) Keep us posted xx

[ppeatfruit]

Medea have you ever thought of removing wheat from his diet? i saw a T.V. prog about boys with ASD and their mum put a lot of it down to wheat intolerance.

[Hammerlikedaisies]

Medea, you poor thing. You are clearly worried out of your mind, but doing everything you possibly can.

No help to offer, I'm afraid, just that I know a child who had some really upsetting intrusive thoughts. Have you explored that possibility? This boy's strategy seemed to be to try to get them out of his head by screaming and tantruming and being violent. He has since learnt other strategies and better self-control (no more violemce), but the poor soul is still plagued by them from time to time.

Your boy sounds to me like a child in pain, and you sound like a loving, capable parent who is doing everything she can to help him. All the best.

[Nancy66]

It does sound as if you are doing all you can.

I really would question the wisdom of being overly strict with your daughter when she is not misbehaving. Your son feels he is unfairly picked on - isn't she going to start feeling the same way? And this time with just cause?

Easy for me to say, I know, I'm not in your shoes. But it does seem as if your little girl is really suffering when she has done nothing wrong.

[Medea]

Hi there everyone

I have been very busy and was not on mumsnet for several days but appreciate the further posts.

When you have a child who has a problem, there can be a tendency to blame the parent(s). If you do one thing, you are told you should be doing the opposite. Then you do the opposite, and someone new tells you that's wrong too. In family counselling (prescribed by the GP) it has come up that ds views me as too strict and believes I favour his sister. I have therefore been encouraged to call his sister to task whenever she winds ds up (as younger siblings do sometimes) instead of focusing so much positive attention on her and negative attention on ds. This is not easy because dd is almost always perfectly behaved: she has almost no choice but to have the 'good girl' identity because she has a brother that had created such a hellish environment. So what other role can she have?

The counsellor has also told me I must be very clear about the rules and to sit down with him and COMMUNICATE exactly what is not allowed and what the consequences are. According to the therapist, he has a profound sense that I am unfair to him and that I punish him out of nowhere.

That is why we involved him the conference: to be very clear (again) that violence is NOT tolerated, and to be very clear about the punishments that would be incurred as a result of the violence.

I know it is tempting to say all he needs is a good 'boot up the arse,' but honestly we have been extremely firm with him and have taken every single bit of professional advice on discipline. Even my parents, who are of the 'boot up the arse' school and used to believe that walloping him would be the solution, have now concluded that something is a bit 'off'. Most people, if disciplined often enough, cease the behaviour that brings the punishment. But he goes and does that thing (refusal; violence; rudeness) again and again and again, regardless of how many times he is punished.

Willshelf: discipline strategies include (among other things) no TV or no computer for a given number of days. He also has an opportunity to 'earn' something by good behaviour (he'll accrue 'points' over time) but sadly almost never manages to earn enough points because he can't control the violence. On a more immediate basis, he'll be sent to his room when he's violent...but getting a 100lb boy to his room (he inevitably refuses) is no easy job.

He saw a neurologist, as I said in my first post. He had to answer a long questionnaire. He scored high-ish in the 'violence' section and also in the 'depressed/anxious' section and in the ASD section. In the questionnaire he acknowledged that he does not feel much guilt.

The social worker at the family counselling centre has referred ds to a psychiatrist. That is the next step.

Thanks again everyone.

PS I've been on mumsnet since forever (but I've not posted much in recent years as my kids have got older), and I chose my name, Medea, as a wry acknowledgement of maternal guilt: a reminder that there was at least ONE mother in the world who was worse than me.

[tryingtobemarypoppins2]

Medea - hope your all ok???

[WilfShelf]

What consequences does he receive when he is violent? You haven't talked about what strategies you have been using to manage his behaviour.

[asdx2]

Medea I think you really need to consider what messages you are giving out to your children by sending dd away and involving ds in a family conference which was precipitated by dreadful behaviour on his part.
I suspect that his saying you hate him is to induce guilt on your part and make you feel helpless to address his behaviour.
I really think your priority at the minute should be your dd who is being terrorised in her own home.
Even if ds has an ASD as two of my children do it is neither a reason nor an excuse for violence.
I would urge you to see your GP and get an urgent referral to a child psych and refer your family to SS before school do and you are considered complicit in your son's abuse of your daughter.

[Nancy66]

Oh dear Medea - you poor thing.

It's an intolerable situation and one you need to take drastic action over. I think you DO need to involve social services - your son may need specialist residency care for a while - which would help you all as a family.

Of course you love your son and want to 'cure' him but your daughter is having the most horrific childhood right now

[bobbysmum07]

Well Aspergers or not, the OP's main concern here should be her little girl. No child should have to live like that. If this boy is so violent that he can't be controlled then he should be removed from the family home.

He sounds like a great bullying git to me who needs his father to give him a boot up the arse, not ask him his opinion in a family conference.

[tryingtobemarypoppins2]

Medea are you ok? xx

[bullet234]

I agree with defineme. I have aspergers and when I was at school I was very quiet and very withdrawn. I still am. Not because I was/am "holding it in" or "masking it", but because when I was/am stressed or overwhelmed my reaction was/is to sort of go into myself and so anyone who had observed me in the classroom would have thought I was very quiet and no trouble. Different matter when I came home and ironically the calmer atmosphere would trigger an outpouring of emotion from me.

[Litchick]

OP, you really can't allow this level of violence to be used on your DD.
Bruises and black eyes!!!!!
She must be utterly terrified in her own home.

I think you need to get CAHMs involved now.
I think you need to get SS involved now.

I know you are probably resistant, but this can't go on. If your DD is seriously hurt you run the risk of her being removed.

[tryingtobemarypoppins2]

Medea I think you need to get to CAMHS urgently. See your GP tomorrow. They will be able to look at the the possibility of Asperger's diagnosis, support for you all, perhaps medication.
IMO, not only is your DD unsafe (knives involved here) but your DS isn't safe either.
It worries me you may wait for an appointment from CAHMS as safe levels are shocking, so consider calling SS and having DS removed if you are not urgently listened to.
My heart goes out to you.

[OmniumAndGatherum]

Medea - we sort of suspected for a while, but havered for ages because there were other things that don't necessarily "fit" the Aspergers pattern. It's clear now, though, that there's no specific template: it's a question of the behaviour ticking enough of the boxes. In my DS's case, it was the combination of obsessions and anger. We had hoped he would grow out of the anger, but it is arguably worse now than it was when he was younger (and it's far worse physically, in that he's bigger and stronger). He blows his top, and then acts as if nothing happened, while we are all shellshocked. His younger sister - who winds him up too, which is also something I'm working on - suffers from all of us living on a knife edge.

We eventually consulted DS's Y3 teacher, who agreed that the obsessions were stopping him from forming relationships with his peers (this is another thing he has always struggled with). I rang a couple of people to find out what was involved in the NHS diagnostic procedure, and was sufficiently reassured by what they said. The whole process ended up taking a relatively short time - around six months from initial GP consultation to consultant's diagnosis.

As I say, we did always wonder. DS is super-super-super bright, yet unable to relate to anyone except adults, and has always been that way. If it had turned out that he was not on the spectrum, that in itself would have been useful, though.

I do hope you can find some way to help all of you. I can't say that the diagnosis has made DS any less aggressive towards his sister (Aspergers children can apparently have huge problems with siblings), but it does help to know that he is wired in this particular way.

[Medea]

Yes, but my friends with boys at that same school don't report that their boys go crazy at home, so I think it's quite specific to him...

[Nanny0gg]

Is he 'going off on one' at home, because he goes to a strict all-boys school? He obviously is kept on a tight rein there and he has to let off steam (however inappropriately) somewhere.