to wonder whether good parenting has to be about sacrifice?

[ljhooray]

OK deliberately provoking allsorts of debate with this title I know but I'm really intrigued to see what people's opinions on this are, having taken part in some discussions on a whole range of subjects over the past few weeks. So why this OP - well I'm thinking of having just one child as it means that me and dh get to spend plenty of time with dh and can still to a limited extent follow some of our own interests (is that selfish and not making the sacrifices to give dd a sibling?), I ff as I found bf too difficult (some would argue I should have tried harder!), although I have to work, if money was not so tight, I would probably still work some of the week (time I could devote to my dd). SO what do we all think? can't wait to see this discussion get going!

[Astrophe]

Bonsoiranna - I hear you. I think we are mostly arguing on definition. I totally agree that these things are a parents responsibilty, and something that shouldn't be resented. I also agree that when you choose to have cvhildren, those things go with that decision.

In the 'big picture', I don't feel like haviong my kids is a sacrifice. I love them, I wanted them desperately, and I would be lost without them. I chose to have them in my life, and to not have kids would have been a HUGE sacrifice for me.

Maybe this is a csae of the English language being ambiguous? What I'm saying is that we do lots of things for our kids and get nothing in return, and I don't think we should expect things in return. Its different from a relationship with another adult.

[Maria2007]

I agree with what Anna said, above. Doing things for children (basic things, like wiping bottoms, playing with them & staying in) has to do with basic parental responsibility, not sacrifice. So I think when we're talking in this thread of 'sacrifice' we mean something else entirely. If one were to consider basic parental responsibilities as a sacrifice, then that sort of person would find the whole experience of parenthood pretty disappointing & dire- to say the least.

As for the concept of sacrifice (or the mummy martyr). I think that yes, it mainly has to do with mothers (unfortunately) & is a widely spread concept in many countries (e.g. Mediterranean countries). I can think of few things as awful as a mother who will tell her grown up children how much she's sacrificed for them, & how all her life revolves around them. What a burden for a child to carry. I think there are people who have literally been destroyed because their parents were this way.

As for the OP's examples- even though I agree with her main thoughts- I think specific parental choices (breastfeeding, co-sleeping etc) have nothing whatsoever to do with sacrifice. Breastfeeding can be a pleasurable & fulfilling experience for the mother. The same with co-sleeping, as long as it's a choice. The parents who wave around their sacrifices could be following any parenting style.

[BonsoirAnna]

Doing things for others is a necessary part of life - and people do things for us too. Life is all about exchange. Economics is based on bartering.

[Judy1234]

Yes, but plenty of us as men and women work and let others do some but by no means all of the bottom wiping. I'ev never regarded being a mother as a sacrifice. It's a massive lovely part of the my life and I've chosen to extend it now into year 24 of parenthood by having so many children over such a long period. Yes, I've given lots up. I didn't have 15 years of free income and travelling like some people have, as I had my children young but the rewards for me from living that life as a mother were much higher than had I had a lot more money and time to sit around in foreign hotels or get my nails polished. Those thigns never appealed but breastfeeding being pregnant cuddling children appealed hugely and still does.

There are too many sacrificial martyr mothers around though who long term don't benefit their children 0 who say things like look what I've given up, I've driven my fingers to the bone looking after you, etc etc. That's a stupid way to be. It's her responsibility as an adult to make the right compromises. Just don't as a woman ever think your children will thank you for doing things yiou aren't happy with. Obviously my position is for me working full time was the best option for everyone so I certainly had no major career sacrifice but even with me there must be plenty of career things I could have done that having children meant I could not. On a daily b asis that is so. When I went to Iran for work in the Autumn instead of a week lounging aruond I went out on a night flight, had one night in a hotel and came back on a night flight, no days tagged onto business trips because the children need me. Went skiing in Jan with one child and we didn't stay the week we were invited because the chidlren need me here. On the other hand I coudl have been all martryish and said I won't therefore go to Iran or I won't go on the skiing at all. I suppose we all sit there and make choices. Similarly doing things for neighbours and friends and for people we do work for is equally as sacrificial often. I think most of us have a better life and a morally better life if we do things for others. That in itself is satisfying whether we're male or female.

[BonsoirAnna]

I just don't agree with your examples of "sacrifice" Astrophe. If you bring children into the world in this day and age you do have a choice in the matter and you have a responsibility to bring them up - which includes wiping bottoms, playing with them and staying in rather than going out to dinner. That isn't sacrifice but basic parental responsibility.

[Astrophe]

their bum

[Astrophe]

I see what you mean Bonsoirana, but I think sometimes with kids, it is, even by your definition, sacrifice. Sometimes you don't get anything in return from your kids - often infact. I guess you can say you have the satisfactio of helping them or whatever, but often its not very satisfying to play with a toddler, or wipe they're bum, or decide not to go out to dinner because its too expensive. You hope to get the satisfaction of seeing them as happy well rounded adults, but there are no guarantees of that.

I think with kids (and even occasionally with adults, although less so), you do sacrifice and get nothing back, because you love the child unconditionally. So you give to your kids, regardless of whether they give to you or not.

[BonsoirAnna]

Xenia - I think that your "taking turns to make sacrifices" is actually what is known as "negotiation and compromise".

Sacrifice really is not getting anything in return.

[2shoes]

(nice to see you Xenia)

[Judy1234]

I certainly found that the twins were easier than one child and easier than a baby a one year and and a 3 year old as we had at one point. They play together and are friends for each other.

I do think it's nicer for a woman if you can be a "satisficer" ( content with your choices) rather than always feeling you've not done well enough. I think that's a difference between my sister and me. She always feels she's not quite doing enough with her children and I'm usually fairly content on the whole that I've done enough and am good enough. She's the most archetypal martyr I have ever come across, in a league of her own.

You also have a duty as a woman (or man) to look afetr your own needs too although I'm not saying getting the right balance is easy and on a daily basis whatever our respective income levels we all whether male or female struggle with getting the balance right.

Morally and as a catholic I think sacrifice is a pretty good thing to do anyway but on political grounds I'd be dead set against any fool woman who is the only one doing any of the sacrificing - that's bad for families, children and society at large. If we could ensure on the whole more sacrifices are made by men than women then that's a pretty good starting point and aim just to even things out a bit. So next time there's a sacrifice to be made in your family do ensure it's done by the man not the woman. When he's done about 4 of them you get to make one.

"Xenia is right: "The secret as a mother is to ensure you don't become the martyr who then berates the child for life about what you gave up for the child. Make a choice about how you;ll do things and then realise it was for the best." It doesn't matter whether you agree with her choices or not - it's being happy with your own that is the key. I've not been able to work since my children were born as my husband has a job which involves us moving all over the world. It wouldn't suit everyone, but I can live with it (very happily in fact)and I don't think of it as a sacrifice I just focus on all the benefits. To answer the OP's point about only having one child so she has more time with DH I would say having two children ensures I have more time with DH. Not when they were babies of course, but once they were old enough to play together (they are two years apart) life became much easier especially on days out and when we go away on holidays - two is so much easier than one."

[cory]

Riven has a point though: it's not everybody who gets the chance to decide the level of sacrifice they are going to put in.

Dd has been on an up for several months now and I am almost living the life of somebody with NT children: it's amazing that life can be so easy! I had totally forgotten what this was like. It's great stuff!

Healthy compromise wasn't what I was doing when dd was at her worst. But I like the look of it .

I don't insist on martyrdom for the sake of it. But you don't always get a choice.

[blackrock]

I don't see it as a compromise either, we knew what we were doing and wanted to do this. Maybe this is why our household is so happy.

[noonki]

perfectly put hedgewitch

[SnowlightMcKenzie]

Agree with blackrock, although our children don't fit in with the life we had before them, we have adjusted our lives of course, but because we wanted to.

[higgle]

I always feel as if I'm a selfish mother, I don't go out of my way to encourage expensive hobbies, provide somewhat niggardly pocket money and make my two work for any extras they need, but if I sit down and add up everything that I do do and what I can't do that I would like to do - such as keeping a horse, going on more holidays, entertaining more, I realise that I do actually subconsciously make sacrifices for my children. I would never fully fund them through uni, even if I could afford to becase it would not be good for them to get it entirely for free, but I will pay for some things. I think helathy compromise on expenditure and time is probably the best.

[blackrock]

What sacrifice?

We wanted children and we have carried on with life as before with a child. The child is a part of us, not a extra cost of money, or time!

[LilianGish]

Xenia is right: "The secret as a mother is to ensure you don't become the martyr who then berates the child for life about what you gave up for the child. Make a choice about how you;ll do things and then realise it was for the best." It doesn't matter whether you agree with her choices or not - it's being happy with your own that is the key. I've not been able to work since my children were born as my husband has a job which involves us moving all over the world. It wouldn't suit everyone, but I can live with it (very happily in fact)and I don't think of it as a sacrifice I just focus on all the benefits. To answer the OP's point about only having one child so she has more time with DH I would say having two children ensures I have more time with DH. Not when they were babies of course, but once they were old enough to play together (they are two years apart) life became much easier especially on days out and when we go away on holidays - two is so much easier than one.

[lunamoon2]

I tend to agree with Astrophe,

Don't all relationships involve some kind of compromise?
Going out with friends even involves some sort of debate about who wants to go where and occasionally I will go with the majority, although I would have preferred to do something else.
The same is true with being a parent, the money I would have had, the holidays I would have had (instead of "child friendly" ones), the beautifully decorated pale coloured home etc.
But the opposite is also true the benefits the kids have brought outweigh all this.

[MamacitaGordita]

justneedsomeskissleep I don't think xenia is typical of MNers- she's in a league of her own!

I like the idea someone suggested of 'sacrifice' meaning an offering. The term 'sacrifice' is a bit loaded IMO.

It's been tough accepting that my body has changed, my friends have changed, my relationships have changed, my career is... as someone else put it, buggered! and that basically life will never be the same again! But that's life; that's children. It's about reorganisation of priorities and comprimise rather than matrydom/sacrifice.

[Jampot]

I dont think good parenting is about sacrifice. Speaking for myself I feel I offered the appropriate care and time for my children at their appropriate stages but those stages and needs change and we adapt. Eg. when they were little if they were poorly when I was going out I wouldnt go, preferring to stay home to look after them, now I would make sure I took my mobile and asked them to call if there was a problem . I do still like to be here for them when they get in from school though. I think my parents sacrificed a lot when we were young though, they never seemed to go out, or have money, or anything else for that matter that separated them from us as children (3 girls - you would just need to get out wouldnt you?) I couldnt live like that but then my children are more confident than we were.

[ljhooray]

Hi everyone, sorry work got in the way of any more posts but loving the discussion and feel it's only fair as I posted the OP to give my opinion too. Totally agree with those about setting the exmaple of following interests and maintaining friendships but of course without compromising time with children and lets not forget, time with dh! My parents have virtually no interests and did little to maintain any friendships and I think that makes their later years tough. I've often worried about probably the most common issue that is raised on one child discussions about elderly parents and the burden of responsibility but I have 3 sisters and the lion's share still falls to me anyway! It's not an easy balance to strike but investing in you, your partner, our friends and interests sets a good exmaple to children in developing a good support network and emotional and physical wellbeing. DD is the most important thing in my life and in addition to the time we spend together anyway, if she needs me, others things will be compromised first.
What I've also found very interesting is no one supporting my guilt ridden thoughts about being selfish having one, I feel soooo much better!

[justneedsomesleep]

xenia - nannies, horses ski-ing? 10k a child?

What I would give for all for that, as an adult! [jealous]

I don't think I'm posh or rich enough to me on mumsnet, have suspected this for a while....Perhaps I need to sacrifice more to provide my children with these things.

However,i think it's true that compromise is the key.

I have 2 children, 3 and 1 just now and obviously their needs will change as they get older and eventually they will leave home - this is when i can resume the fancy holidays, clothes for me, spare money to spend as I wish...(that's the the theory anyway!)

[vezzie]

When I was living at home my mother had no time to spare at all. (I felt guilty about this.) Now she is retired and has no dependents... she still has no time to spare at all. It is slowly dawning on me that for some people there is an element of choice in their "sacrifices" and it is making me hope that I can be self aware about this when I am a parent.