To have told these guys to get off my driveway? (Bin)

[TheViewFromTheCheapSeats]

Thursday is bin day, wheelie bins are out at the boundary for collection. Other days my bins are near the kitchen door as it practical, round the back/at the side corner of the house.
Last night (Tuesday) in the dark I was a bit freaked out to hear people right outside my back door about 8:30pm. Just me and the kids home. Two guys, one with a clipboard, one with a torch looking in a bin were there.
They’d walked down my drive and down the side of my house to look in bins by the back door (you’d just about see them from the front as one bin was sticking out).
I was a bit shocked, thought they could be identify thieves / burglars casing at first and shouted ‘oi, get out! Out! What you doing?! Get out my garden!’ out of the upstairs window.
I followed to the front door and opened it and the guy was all defensive-that it’s his job to check bins for the council to see we haven’t put anything in them not allowed. Apparently everyone else understands this and has no problem/ he doesn’t expect to be shouted at.
I didn’t swear or carry on shouting, but I think most people would shout at two guys in the dark they found rummaging in their back garden? I just stepped out and locked the side gate and told them they could check in collection days as much as they like, but they have no right to enter as they please. Speaking to others they are definitely from the council.

1. In the dark wandering around houses isn’t on
   
2. What is in my bin outside collection days is my business, the kids sometimes make recycling mistakes and before I put the bins out I check the rubbish is in the correct bin
   
3. The bin men will only take the bins from the boundary, not even two foot down the drive. So why can these guys walk around the house?
   

He also popped a letter through the door after a few minutes that’s a warning letter about the recycling, threatening an £80 fine if we put out non-recycling items again. He’s written in the blank space there was ‘food packaging’ in the recycling bin. Apparently they have recorded this. I’ve been to check the in bin this morning and I can’t see anything in the wheelie bin that’s not allowed! There’s food packaging like clean Tins etc, but nothing not on the website list. Also, the bloody bin wasn’t even out for collection.

Aibu to write a complaint? Partly regarding the first step of an £80 fine!

[5foot5]

YANBU that is outrageous. It would have freaked me out too to hear strangers in my back garden after dark. I can only imagine how scary it might have been for an old person.

Apart from all that I am outraged on your behalf for the intrusion. As you say, you hadn't actually put the bin out for collection yet.

[user1471447863]

YANBU
They took a hell of a risk snooping round peoples gardens in the dark, they are very lucky they were not attacked as presumed to be intruders. I'd love to see their task risk assessment for this

It's not always easy to think what to do in the heat of the moment but you would not have been out of order to phone the police and report a couple of men creeping around your garden in the dark.

As for the threatened fine - you'd be quite right to insist on an immediate and unequivocal withdrawal of that threat and an apology. What you store in your bins while on your property is your business and yours alone until such time as it is presented for collection - which it wasn't.
And as for the threat of fines when they are out, well you have to put them out prior to 7am here so they usually go out around tea time the night before and may not get picked up until 6pm so can quite easily have been out 24h and free to be tampered with/contaminated by all and sundry

[Anits52]

What if you had a dog that had been taken by surprise and attacked? they should have called to the door. I would totally have done the same.

[TotallySuper]

@FangsForTheMemory

To the people on this thread council-bashing: please don't. Local authorities and contractors are full of individuals who've had a particularly difficult time during covid. They've often had to fill in where needed in other jobs and in some teams have been working directly with elderly and disabled people. It's been rough. If you don't work for a council you see them as faceless bureaucrats. They aren't. They are almost always hardworking professionals who do their best even when circumstances make it difficult.

I'm sorry but I don't think they've had it half as hard as many losing their jobs, businesses and working truly on the front line during covid. Councils in general are over funded in the wrong places (recently met a council diversity manager on £60k monitoring levels of black and Asian applicants for roles - what a huge waste of money) and under fund the wrong things such as care. If they sorted this part out then maybe it wouldn't have been a struggle during covid for the average employee. I can't really feel too much sympathy though sorry!

[TheViewFromTheCheapSeats]

@DameFanny remember Mark Twain’s comment: ‘never argue with an idiot. They’ll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience’.
It’s time consuming and soul destroying, and they really aren’t generally bothered.

[FangsForTheMemory]

To the people on this thread council-bashing: please don't. Local authorities and contractors are full of individuals who've had a particularly difficult time during covid. They've often had to fill in where needed in other jobs and in some teams have been working directly with elderly and disabled people. It's been rough. If you don't work for a council you see them as faceless bureaucrats. They aren't. They are almost always hardworking professionals who do their best even when circumstances make it difficult.

[HarrietsChariot]

Honestly, it's so much easier just to not bother with recycling and put everything in a black bin bag. The people who try to do the right thing are the ones who get into trouble.

[DameFanny]

It could be a rabbit hole of annoyance OR... you could engage your inner spite-bot and decide that you're going to amuse yourself by making their burocratic little souls shrivel at the sight of one of your emails insisting that they do their jobs. Especially if you also send tips in to local and national newspapers, describing how this private company is being allowed to take money from residents under very dubious circumstances, and conduct 'investigations' under even more dubious circumstances.

Hell, I might submit something myself based on this thread. Privatisation of public services is theft, and I'm sick of it.

[TheViewFromTheCheapSeats]

At the moment the councillor has confirmed it, but is waiting on a reply.
I wrote a quick complaint.

Tbh whilst it annoys me it’s also pretty energy draining dealing with it. I’m sure I’ll wait ages for a reply and then get a stupid answer.

For example a few months ago I paid for a large item rubbish collection. I was charged twice. I wrote a short clear email explaining the payment was taken twice. They picked up the sofa on the correct date, but then took payment again. I ended that complaint with ‘please resolve this complaint by returning the additional £60 taken in error to the payment card I used to make the booking’.

I got back a reply apologising for non-collection because there was a shortage of HGV drivers.

They literally didn’t even read my email.

My bins often aren’t collected, you use the reporting form- they ignore it.

It’s a pretty good tactic for making people give up, realistically I probably will (though for £60 that time my councillor did get involved and get a refund). I’m not out realistically to waste this much time. It’s crap, but a rabbit hole of annoyance if you keep it up.

[kierenthecommunity]

I’d agree with the majority here that your bins weren’t kerbside so no offence had been committed (I liken it to shoplifting - you need to attempt to leave the store)

But of a tangent but you don’t actually have to leave the store. Legally it’s theft once you’ve laid hands on it. The main reason security guards let people pass the payment points is it’s far easier to prove.

[MargotMoon]

@TheViewFromTheCheapSeats

Our council sub contract everything and if you complain they try to say they can’t deal with complaints and you need to deal with the company…

Well that's wrong for a start. Councils are responsible for the companies they choose to subcontract to. If they don't consider your complaint then escalate it to the Local Government Ombudsman.

I'm a debt adviser and councils pull this 'not our responsibility' shit all the time when the bailiffs THEY instruct behave like arseholes. So if they are instructing people to police your bins in the dark and issue bullshit penalties they are also responsible for dealing with complaints about them

[Londoncallingme]

Sounds fishy to me - call the council and see if it’s legit.
You can store whatever you like wherever you like - they have no evidence that you would have put unsuitable items out on bin day.

[maddening]

I would not only complain about unauthorised entry to property etc but also strongly refute the letter advising that you checked immediately and although there was no incorrect waste in any case that they cannot dictate what is kept.in the bin whilst on your private property and that the only occasion that they could have rise to issue warnings is if incorrect rubbish is left on bin day.

I would also questuon whether they can fine people if they can't prove the bin has not been tampered with whilst on public ground (eg if another member of the public has not gone past qnd shoved something in the bin). Surely if this is the way they are going they will need to take this in to account?

[Harmonypuss]

Silly question OP.... did you ask them for proof of ID, ie, council badges and/or something to prove they were there on council business?

I would suggest that anyone coming across people doing this in future asks for their names and proof of why they're there, so that they can check out the validity of these people snooping around their bins.

Another suggestion would be to keep your bins behind a locked gate until the night you put them out ready for the morning's collection because any rubbish left out in a public place (and this includes on your property where any member of the public can legitimately get to it, ie, by coming to your front door) is fair game, not sure whether it's law or not but once it's in a public place (not locked away) it's deemed to have been discarded and you can't really stop anyone going through it.

Anyone wanting to go through my rubbish would need to get past my locked gate and the dog until I put the wheelies out at about 4am on Friday morning (our binmen turn up between 4.30 and 5.30am).

[skodadoda]

@TheViewFromTheCheapSeats

But if I had a counsellor I’d probably be venting 😂

🤣👏

[skodadoda]

[quote TheViewFromTheCheapSeats]@BaconMassive because if they do it again without objection they have told me it’ll result in an £80 fine? Seems a pretty good reason.
Also, people creeping around my property in the dark does actually impact me[/quote]
I think BaconMassive is having a go at the spelling. Fell a bit flat 😆

[Pheasantlysurprised]

i havent time to read the entire thread, but are you a council tenant or private/homeowner?

I ask this as have never heard of it happening, and would react similarly if it was myself.

I wouldnt like to think the council are behind this, entering private property without permission and then speaking down to you as if you owe them something. Typical state arrogance.

If you are a council tenant i would also want to know if they do spot checks with homeowners, too. Or are only council tenants presumed to make 'mistakes' with recycling?
Or would they be presumed to be morally superior and more trustworthy?

[TheseBootsWereMadeForSitting]

Sounds to me like a private enforcement company contracted by the council to issue fixed penalty notices when residents commit infractions on bin day.

The facts are that the bins were still on your private property, it was not bin day and those bins had not been put out for collection. Given this, it is impossible for finable infractions to have been committed.

Like some of the subcontracted private parking fine/litter patrol bastard enforcers do, probably same parent company, they're making shit up and abusing the rules to maximise fixed penalty tickets issued number and their profits. Plenty of greedy fucker councils want to maximise revenue from fines issued so will likely be at least turning a blind eye if not actively participating in the abuse of power.

Buy a bin lock and get a big protective hungry dog.

[Thehermitspermit]

Thank God nobody has tried that here.

They would have come across my two enthusiastic big dogs who don't welcome intruders very kindly 😮 we live rurally, my dogs see off visitors, I would be worrying we were about to become victims of cattle theft or something.

I don't see how this could be legit, have you checked with the council?

Putting the workers at awful risk of harm too, going into somebkdies property without warning. That's a bite or a wack on the head waiting to happen

[Mirw]

Ask to see the risk assessment that should have een done before the activity happened. On it should be something about checking bins on private property and where there may be women or older people at home "alone". Put in a complaint on that basis, you were at home on your own apart from your children and 2 men appeared with no warning. You consider it a breach of your H&s and human rights.

[Feeasco]

Are you sure it's legit? What a waste of council funds that could be spent better. Surely the odd transgression would never warrant the cost! I would have called the police on them as it would freak me out. This would be police state quality for sure ☹

[Sillyname63]

Complain to your local councillor , they definitely should not enter your property. Even if the council sub contract services out They are being paid by them therefore should work within their rules and regulations. It is definitely not on . While the bin is on your property you can put anything into it as long as you remove it before it goes out therefore they should not be looking into them.

[helpIhateclothesshopping]

If they came on the wrong day round here chances are the delivery drivers (especially Amazon) would have chucked parcels in them. I'd definitely check with the council, it's a bit antisocial going around in the evening when it is dark, potentially scaring single elderly ladies. If I received a fine like that I probably wouldn't pay it assuming they were fraudsters. Worth giving the Council that kind of feedback and insisting anyone moochingaround the bins has ID, introduces themselves and does so in daylight for their own safety as much as anything else.

[Suzanne999]

@RealMermaid

Given that they showed up in the dark and didn't knock on your door, this is essentially covert surveillance for which the council will need to have approval under the regulation of investigatory powers act. I suggest you complain and ask to see their RIPA approval.

This.
Then look online for the name/s of your councillor/s and contact each individually. ( the listing should show emails) State how alarmed you were—- dark, in the house with children, two men had gone on to your property without announcing their presence.
IMO their job should be done on bin day when the bins are at the kerbside.

[CloseThePackWithAClickClack]

I used to inspect bins, however we did it with the crews. I.e we went round with them and ran ahead to inspect before they collected. We never went around in the dark on people’s driveways! Only inspected presented bins.