To ask if you feel you morally deserve your wealth

[Nc1028]

No judgment, genuinely interested (and bored!)

Read about the idea that people want to have money but also want to believe that they morally deserve the money. For example, those who earned their wealth are more likely to believe they deserve it because of hard work, whereas those who inherited wealth are more likely to feel guilty. Stay-at-home partners also tended to feel guilty if their partners are high earners/have inherited wealth when they haven’t earned/inherited wealth themselves. Everyone try to emphasise on their productiveness, not wanting to be cast as “rich and lazy”.

Wondering what people think?
If you have money, do you think you deserve what you have?
Do you think people who have a lot more money deserve what they have?

(Light hearted. Yes your money is none of anyone’s business but money is such a taboo topic, fun to talk about)

[XingMing]

I don't think about it as a moral issue. I do know that DH started a tiny business 30 years ago, and that I paid our living costs for the first three years until it started to make money, from what I earned. Now we are nearly 65, we shall sell the enterprise we started to retire. We have not inherited money (DH £0, me £3k from GPs and £400.00 from maternal grandma (spent on a big garden table). For years, we have cancelled social engagements at the last minute and dropped everything to deliver last minute customer orders and suddenly we don't have to anymore, and if anyone is jealous of the hard hours that have been put in, feel free to start your own company. There is only one place that money and success come before work.... in a dictionary.

[Nc1028]

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and stories. Really interesting to see many different perspectives.

A little bit about my story and why I asked if anyone’s interested to hear. I grew up poor but had good opportunities through my parents’ hard work and luck, ended up marrying someone who happened to be at the right place and right time, and now has a bit of wealth which I consider excessive. I’ve felt guilty, morally wrong to have this excessive wealth that I did not earn. Having a qualitative (phenomenology) research background, I naturally did some literature review on this phenomenon, and I thought it would be interesting to open up a space to talk about it here, almost like a mini virtual group discussion. I guess I both want to see if others had similar experiences to mine, or had vastly different perspectives.
Again, thanks everyone who shared - so much richness and poignancy

[formerbabe]

I don't think it's even a moral issue unless you're talking about gaining money through criminality. However, wealth from work, business, investments is a product of hard work and luck.

Even just the pure luck having good mental and physical health and a loving supportive family. I think a lot of people have these things and don't realise how much it has helped them to succeed.

[Tollergirl]

I think it is so influenced by what, as a society, we value. So those involved in wealth generation are valued above all others, bearing in mind we are in a capitalist society. Of course we need wealth to sustain public services but culturally we seem to value money for money's sake rather than a way of improving life for everyone. My DP has spent 40 years saving people's lives but this doesn't mean we are rich. No, he's not a Doctor- there are plenty of other health workers at the sharp end and none of them earn as much as they deserve. Is he morally better than those who choose a career in banking? An interesting question and definitely one that my 15 yr old DD would have an opinion on as she is keen to follow her Dad into the healthcare sphere.

I worked as a PA for Venture Capitalists many moons ago and left after a couple of years as I got fed up hearing young men moaning because their million pound bonus should have been at least two million!

Another pp said something along the lines of "as long as you work I don't make any judgement ". I find this v interesting as I have been medically retired for 10 years and will likely never be fit for any kind of work again. Does that mean that me and people like me are of no value to society? Tory government certainly think we are just scroungers. Needless to say I don't agree we them but being in my position has made we realise how much our sense of worth is influenced by our perceived "Market value " - whether that be moral or monetary. We don't make choices in a vacuum. I can completely understand those who are born into poverty wanting to accrue enough wealth to insulate themselves and their families from this (what my old boss used to call the "F Off Factor "). Coming from a family with a hundred years of Methodism behind them worshipping the acquisition of wealth was anathema to them.

Sorry that got a bit deep- but I think our choices are so heavily influenced by our personal history and family culture and our ability to achieve within these choices depends on a huge amount of luck in terms of the genetic lottery, good mental and physical health alongside a strong work ethic. So basically a huge variety of factors that result in some being wealthier than others which has little to do with how deserving you are.

[CherryPavlova]

Yes. Earned every penny. Hard work and self made ‘luck’.

[LaurieFairyCake]

It's just luck and age (being able to buy a cheap property at 25)

I'm not smarter than anyone, I don't work very hard. I've just been very lucky.

There are millions of children who will never get social mobility - we have the worst social mobility in a 100 years!

Apart from anecdotes (which aren't data) if you start poor you will END UP POOR

[XingMing]

Honestly, have read most of the thread, there is a huge chasm between people who have chosen their routes through life, and those who have been the victims of circumstance. And, without prejudice, competence and composure plus intelligence make a big difference to where you end up.

[Youcunnyfunt]

Well, I earn my money and work hard for it, I don't do anything immoral to earn it and I'm not lazy! However, the position I am in to be able to get my job and live here in the UK is largely due to luck - luck of being born to my parents who chose to settle in the UK. Nothing to do with anything I've done or earnt.

[DishingOutDone]

It seems there are no hard and fast rules, this is what's coming out of this thread. And for your daughter @Valkadin, such a loss puts it all into perspective.

[LadyofMisrule]

I can't type. Nine Life Lessons.

[LadyofMisrule]

No. I don't. Listen to Tim Minchin's None Life Lessons. That sums it up for me.

www.google.com/search?q=nine+life+lessons+tim+minchin&oq=nine+life+less&aqs=chrome.0.0i457j69i57j0j0i22i30l3.10601j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[DesperateInTheGulf]

Honestly? No, I don’t. I met a very very wealthy man and have a daughter with him- thats it.
Just happened to be in the right place, right time, reasonably pretty face, slim (pre-DD!) and outgoing personality. Also then happened to have sex in my fertile window one month into dating.

I grew up very comfortable and never worried about money but was aware I would need a career and didn’t expect the kind of wealth I’ve now been exposed to.
However, my relationship with my daughter’s father has since broken down spectacularly, I am having to make significant emotional sacrifices including on my own freedom to maintain a relationship with my DD and I feel bored- I don’t have a career and have little in common with other women my age.
If I had worked for my wealth/had a fabulous career, interesting life in my own right and independence then I would morally feel it is my right. However, it’s not all woe is me as I know I am extreme left fortunate to be able to do whatever I want to do with my DD when we are together!!
I think meritocracy is a myth really.

[boomshakey]

@PattyPan wow that's sobering, I wouldn't have expected mine to be so high.

[thecatsthecats]

@lazylinguist

The thing is, people can get a bit indignant if you suggest that their success might be at least partly down to luck, probably because they think that you mean job opportunities just fell into their lap, or that they got jobs they weren't really intelligent, qualified, hatd-working or talented enough to merit. Whereas I'm meaning luck in terms of genes, upbringing and which country and family you were born into.

But then people can also get indignant if you objectively say, 'I'm intelligent and hard working, and am well paid as a result.'

Luck, deserving, morals... I just don't see how they really give any useful contribution to the situation.

Insisting that I'm lucky to have two highly intelligent parents who gave me good genes and an education-rich environment growing up doesn't change the outcome, and it would certainly be perverse to do negate what I've achieved because of it.

All we can do is look at what gives people the best outcomes and allow others to follow the same path.

(I am a bit 'law of the jungle' about this though. Life is inherently unfair, and one termite's nest gets wiped out by a flood whilst another stands etc. We're all animals at the end of the day, and wildlife crews famously don't intervene to correct the imbalances of natural life - so I wouldn't even say it's a foregone philosophical conclusion that we should make life fair. It's an abstract concept that humans haven't managed to successfully execute yet, and that might be because it's fundamentally incompatible with life on a planet for which 99.99% of species DON'T operate under the law of 'fair'.)

[CarnivalCactus3]

One of my parents spent 2 years in an isolation hospital as a child, visits were evidently once a week by their parents at a window. This affected their education & socialization with other people forever. Their health was subsequently poor
Healthcare has changed for the better over time

However, my parents encouraged & supported my education to university level

I have in turn progressed well & have taken opportunities that have occurred

I am sure that everyone has their own story to tell

I know people who don't work too for a variety of reasons. This it seems is due to their health & their life choices

[lazylinguist]

The thing is, people can get a bit indignant if you suggest that their success might be at least partly down to luck, probably because they think that you mean job opportunities just fell into their lap, or that they got jobs they weren't really intelligent, qualified, hatd-working or talented enough to merit. Whereas I'm meaning luck in terms of genes, upbringing and which country and family you were born into.

[Valkadin]

DH and I have extremely different backgrounds, neither of us has inherited anything due to favouritism to other siblings. My extremely abusive childhood has wired my brain in rather an odd way according to therapists this coupled with intelligence, e.g taught myself to read before I went to school saved me from a very miserable life. Paid my own way through University while working full time which meant 60 to 70 hour weeks for a few years. The brain wiring thing means though I feel empathy I have almost never cried in my entire life and I can make decisions with my head easily. I can also compartmentalise parts of my life, well this was all good until the death of my DD.

Both DH and I took an interest in financial markets when very young. Mine was inspired by a very left wing teacher extolling the evils of capitalism. He was a militant labour supporter. I just thought you can make free money doing nothing! I was 15 at the time.

So we ended up in top 5% income wise for a few years but with the death of DD, I retired in my late forties to care for our youngest child.

Morally I guess I worked ridiculously hard for a few years with those hours. I suppose some people will say making money via investments isn’t moral. I was not fed properly, beaten and sexually abused for about ten years. I have never questioned the morality of my money. I would imagine it’s the kind of question people ponder that haven’t had to overcome any kind of really horrendous strife apart from the usual ups and downs of life.

[AnnnaBananna]

I worked extremely hard but got nothing for it. The good job opportunities never came along, there were budget cuts that halved my salary and set me back to square one in my career, etc. I don’t think those who were lucky enough to get opportunities and avoid setbacks were more morally deserving, no. DH was incredibly lucky with job opportunities and he’s not a better person than me. I also inherited enough to pay for my half of our house. I don’t deserve that any more than anyone else, I was just lucky.

I used to work for a family owned business, they were worth approx £100m and they were absolute twats who treated people like shit. They were certainly not more deserving than anyone else.

[CarnivalCactus3]

I worked with someone who had been made redundant multiple times, although due to no fault of their own. The company that we both worked for, we had hoped to work until retirement. It was the first time that I was made redundant (pre Covid). My friend was very disappointed. I was fortunate to secure another job quickly.

I've worked in several different industries

I pay my taxes

I've volunteered

I've trained & mentored

I've donated time, goods & money to local charitable causes

Why would I not be proud of what I've achieved over the years ?

I'm not earning mega money

Some people don't get the same opportunities due to their up bringing or health

There is are elements of opportunity, personal responsibility & luck !

[Lampzade]

I have a relatively well paid job and quite a bit of savings. Dh’s business has really taken off and he has made quite a bit of money.
We are not rich, but comfortable.
I don’t feel that there is anything morally wrong in having the amount of money that we do and I don’t feel guilty about it. I feel fortunate and grateful to be able to help others because I do have some disposable income.

[wimto]

Anyone who lives in the U.K. is massively better off than someone who is from a disadvantaged/underdeveloped country. Do we all deserve it? Morally? Probably not

[AlexaShutUp]

Interesting question.

We are not wealthy but we are comfortable, and I have worked bloody hard for what we've got. I would say that I definitely have a stronger work ethic than many people I know. However, I also recognise that I was incredibly lucky to have been born into a stable, educated, supportive family, and to have grown up in an area with good schools etc, and that has made a huge difference.

So no, I'm not convinced that I entirely "deserve" what I have - it's the result of a combination of luck and hard work, and not all one or the other.

[Facelikearustytractor]

Haven't read the whole thread, so hope this hasn't turned into a race to the bottom debate like most threads do.

Quite frankly people deserve a lot more than what they have. Compared to how how hard my some of my older relatives have worked, I feel I've worked equally hard as them but have not had the luck of parents who were willing to help or a financial system that was as enabled me to have the sort of things they came to expect as a minimum (stuff your fucking iphones, I want a secure home). I don't think they deserve less than what they have had though. I just think younger generations/those who have suffered lately with the economic impact of COVID deserve MUCH, MUCH better.

I'm not worried about doctors, solicitors and high earning professionals earning their money. They deserve it. I just don't like corrupt behaviour that earns multi million/billionaires even more money than they can really spend.

[PattyPan]

@Orangeboots I do understand relative wealth. My point was that I work hard and don’t deserve to live in poverty (ie struggling to afford necessities). Other people also don’t deserve to be in that position. There are enough resources in the world for that, easily.

@boomshakey howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i this tells you how rich you are relative to the rest of the world based on income