Little Britain apology

[sunlightflower]

David Walliams and Matt Lucas have apologised for playing characters of different races in Little Britain. Walliams also apologised in 2017 for playing a transvestite.

But they haven't apologised for mocking disabled people, women, the working class... Is that all ok then?

Am I being unreasonable to think this just doesn't make sense? I'm not sure where I draw the line on what is and isn't acceptable in comedy and I'm not saying the right approach is to censor everything. But why are some groups fair game and others aren't?

[StillCoughingandLaughing]

I think the problem with the Little Britain ‘blackface’ characters - the ones I can remember, which are Bubbles and Desiree, so correct me if there were more - is that they didn’t need to be black, so to speak. It just felt like an unnecessary and obviously potentially offensive step to add in black make-up. The only reason I can see is that Bubbles’s mannerisms and speech patterns owe more than a little to Shirley Bassey (who Matt Lucas has previously impersonated without ‘blacking up’).

As for Bo Selecta!, that apology really felt like bandwagon jumping. Given that all the characters were portrayed using grotesque masks and looked like very extreme parodies of the real life celebs, I don’t see why it was offensive to include black celebrities. It wasn’t saying ‘look at this, white people pretending to be black, ha ha!’ - the joke was that these were very distorted, extreme parodies.

[myohmywhatawonderfulday]

I think the point of the comedy was poking fun at everything and everyone. It was cruel humour, even at the time, if they had focussed on one minority group - that would have been the indicator of a problem imo and unacceptable.

It wasn't to my taste but offence was is points and it did it well.

To be able to hold a mirror up, be cutting, look from different perspectives, ridicule the stereotypes are part of a free society.

What is worrying me at the moment is the blanket and reactionary approach to a nuanced issue which needs to include the history, context and artistic intention within making choices to censor or not.

Part of theatre is symbolic representation, mutli-role playing, cross role-playing - these have deep roots and so to limit actors to only play their own ethnicity/sexual orientation or even ability is removing something of the heart of what it means to be an actor - which is to enter into another person's shoes (and in our Stanislavski-weighted approach) to ask 'how would I react if I was in this situation.

Perhaps the comedy of Little Britian goes beyond? Or does it exaggerate it so we can reflect on its place? R

[MouthBreathingRage]

But there definitely is a case for characters with disabilities being played by actors with disabilities, otherwise why include the disability?

Glee (putting aside the real life issue with the actors) holds up as examples on both sides of this argument. They had an actor who wasn't physically disabled in a wheelchair, however they also had a few actors who had Down Syndrome.

They had characters who are gay, but not all acted by gay people (or not ones who proclaim themselves LGB). They had a two trans characters, though I'm not aware either are anything but their biological sex in real life (certainly Dot Jones). Actually, the trans male character arc was one of the worst representation of a trans story I've ever seen, and I'm not just saying that as someone who's GC.

Ultimately, we need to evaluate the line. Is it the writing that needs to change? We know white people should absolutely not black-up, the racist connotations are too severe whatever the action being played. Does this mean that everything else mentioned is now completely offensive as well, even if the context is not? No more straight people playing LGB (or the other way around), no non-trans people playing trans, no non-disabled people playing those with either learning or physical disabilities?

[OnlyFoolsnMothers]

Bo selector really confused me- he was portraying black artists. So was he meant not to and only portray white people- racists surely too.
If the masks were the issue then the show itself was the issue

[Pumperthepumper]

To be able to hold a mirror up, be cutting, look from different perspectives, ridicule the stereotypes are part of a free society.

This isn’t what happened in Little Britain though, it was made to appeal to the kind of person who thought two white men should be able to use racism to get laughs. The reason those characters weren’t played by people of the same race was because you wouldn’t have laughed if the butt of the joke was being spoken to in the way say, Matt Lucas as Ting Tong was.

I’ve said this on other threads but actually, there are loads of white-centric British comedy shows that use racism to punch up. The scene in Father Ted where he pulls his eyes back and puts a lampshade on his head, to a bewildered Dougal - then turns to see his new Asian neighbours watching him. The joke there is he was being racist, but can’t stand that people think of him like that so has to massively backtrack. He’s very obviously the butt of that joke.

[Pumperthepumper]

Ultimately, we need to evaluate the line. Is it the writing that needs to change? We know white people should absolutely not black-up, the racist connotations are too severe whatever the action being played. Does this mean that everything else mentioned is now completely offensive as well, even if the context is not? No more straight people playing LGB (or the other way around), no non-trans people playing trans, no non-disabled people playing those with either learning or physical disabilities?

But that’s exactly my point - I don’t think we need a blanket rule of ‘you are not X therefor cannot play X’. I think it’s pretty clear that if you are playing a character where one of the main stories is the difficulties gay people face, probably someone that has real life experience of that is a better choice. That becomes much more obvious in a part where the character has a physical disability - such as Walt Jr from Breaking Bad, where an actor pretending to walk and talk like a person with CP is an unnecessary addition.

[garino]

All comedy should be banned. Then nobody will be offended.

[CopperBeeches]

The thing is if you don't A - apologize and B - accuse others including friends, family and public figures you are seen, by default to be As Bad As They Are - and therefore open to derision, attack, ostracization and removal of privileged status. Once accused you have no choice.

[srownbkingirl]

If women didn't complain about it before or aren't complaining about it now, then I can see why they're only apologising about the area of complaints.

If the only reason women are complaining now and asking for an apology is because Black people have complained and gotten their apology (sincere or just good PR, who knows?), then it isn't a genuine concern.

FWIW I never really watched Little Britain, only saw a few clips and didn't find it interesting but going by what I've read and seen on this issue, I understand it was taking the piss out of everyone, not just Black people. I wouldn't say it's (intentionally) racist or sexist but 🤷🏽‍♀️

[Pumperthepumper]

And actually, there’s a case for under-representation to be challenged too. We already have fewer mainstream BAME actors in Britain. We have even fewer BAME actors with disabilities. We have even fewer gay BAME, disabled actors. So having a part for an already under-represented part of society given to a white, straight, able-bodied actor seems a bit unfair - does that make sense?

[Hazelnutlatteplease]

I hate little Britain.

Andy being able to physically do things beyond most able-bodied people's abilities. The 'joke' is that Lou is so focused on his job as a support worker, he only sees Andy as helpless.
Your defense in itself it pretty offensive to anyone with or caring for disabilities

If you're going to be universally offensive own it. Like Jimmy Carr.

You don't apologise to one section (because its fashionable) because you instantly devalue every other disadvantaged minority you exploited for gain.

[MouthBreathingRage]

such as Walt Jr from Breaking Bad, where an actor pretending to walk and talk like a person with CP is an unnecessary addition.

I think this is where the difference between comedy and drama becomes apparent. A comedy is not always reality. It's surrealism, exaggeration, crass or gross depending on people's taste. It takes a reality and mocks it. So do the same rules apply in representation? Or can it just be self deprecation, no dressing up in another sex or age group or playing straight or gay to stereotypes to avoid all offense? People of course are allowed to be offended, but does that mean comedy as we know it has to have its past erased and every aspect apologised for?

[MouthBreathingRage]

Your defense in itself it pretty offensive to anyone with or caring for disabilities

I'm not defending it, I'm explaining why the joke isn't against the disabled person in the case, but for their carer. That joke isn't representative of all support workers either.

I'm unsure why people are offended by the idea that a disabled person could 'outsmart' their carer though. It's not saying all disabled people are exaggerating their conditions, or that all support workers are caring to the point of naivety.

[Pumperthepumper]

@MouthBreathingRage

such as Walt Jr from Breaking Bad, where an actor pretending to walk and talk like a person with CP is an unnecessary addition.

I think this is where the difference between comedy and drama becomes apparent. A comedy is not always reality. It's surrealism, exaggeration, crass or gross depending on people's taste. It takes a reality and mocks it. So do the same rules apply in representation? Or can it just be self deprecation, no dressing up in another sex or age group or playing straight or gay to stereotypes to avoid all offense? People of course are allowed to be offended, but does that mean comedy as we know it has to have its past erased and every aspect apologised for?

I’m not really sure what you mean by this - I’ve already explained how racist tropes can be used in comedy without punching down, I just think it’s more difficult to get it right. The idea that comedy should be offensive is only ever argued by people with no stakes in the game too - people who haven’t been raped, for example. Or people who haven’t suffered because of their disability or ethnicity. Challenging racist ideas, yes. Openly mocking Asian characters, no. The line isn’t really that hard to find.

[MouthBreathingRage]

So having a part for an already under-represented part of society given to a white, straight, able-bodied actor seems a bit unfair - does that make sense?

Of course, and in general programming it should be the case. Brooklyn 99 has a very diverse cast, without resorting to 'tokenism', a lot of modern comedies and dramas could learn from it.

However, Little Britain (like many sketch shows) are a two-person act. There's only so many 'bits' they can do as one gay man and one... straight man.

[SerenDippitty]

such as Walt Jr from Breaking Bad, where an actor pretending to walk and talk like a person with CP is an unnecessary addition.

The actor concerned, RJ Mitte was diagnosed with CP aged 3 and had crutches and leg braces as a child but but no longer needed them by his teenage years.

[MouthBreathingRage]

The idea that comedyshouldbe offensive is only ever argued by people with no stakes in the game too

I'm not arguing that comedy should be offensive, I can see that a lot of past comedies use offensive characters as a cheap joke. I'm questioning where the line is between 'I dont like that character being represented that way so I'm saying it's offensive' and something that is out and out offensive, like black face.

[Hazelnutlatteplease]

I think the idea that disabled people are able to do more than they let on is pretty damaging given they experience that kind of prejudice every time they try to access support from PIP to EHCP to grants.

And no I'm not up for censorship. But i won't watch it either. People can vote with their feet.

But representing one form of prejudice as not ok when you earnt your living out of many different kind prejudice and offense of all kind is vile. Why is racism worse than disablism. Because BLM is currently more fashionable.

[SerenDippitty]

Armstrong and Miller played couple of female characters running a coffee shop. Expect an apology soon.

[Pumperthepumper]

However, Little Britain (like many sketch shows) are a two-person act. There's only so many 'bits' they can do as one gay man and one... straight man.

Exactly. So their choice was to diversify the cast, or be racist, and they made their choice.

[Pumperthepumper]

@SerenDippitty

such as Walt Jr from Breaking Bad, where an actor pretending to walk and talk like a person with CP is an unnecessary addition.

The actor concerned, RJ Mitte was diagnosed with CP aged 3 and had crutches and leg braces as a child but but no longer needed them by his teenage years.

Ah, I didn’t know that. A poor example then.

[Pumperthepumper]

@MouthBreathingRage

The idea that comedyshouldbe offensive is only ever argued by people with no stakes in the game too

I'm not arguing that comedy should be offensive, I can see that a lot of past comedies use offensive characters as a cheap joke. I'm questioning where the line is between 'I dont like that character being represented that way so I'm saying it's offensive' and something that is out and out offensive, like black face.

But that line doesn’t exist, there’s always somebody that thinks it could be done more sensitively or less obviously. You seem to think that the whole idea is that nobody is ever offended ever, and that’s not the case. The idea is that something offensive for the sake of punching down and appealing to the type of ignorance that Little Britain made its money on is no longer acceptable. Which it wasn’t when it was made (2003) and definitely isn’t now.

[Cam2020]

As for Bo Selecta!, that apology really felt like bandwagon jumping. Given that all the characters were portrayed using grotesque masks and looked like very extreme parodies of the real life celebs

Definitely. Maybe if Craig David hadn't been such a big-headed bellend, he wouldn't have parodied. That's what he was being mocked for after all, not his race.

[FreeKitties]

Women have been complaining for years about sexism in comedy, but good old fashioned misogyny means no body really gives a shit.

[chocolatesweets]

ITS COMEDY FFS