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AIBU?

Hate the terms black and white

82 replies

Whatisinaword · 10/06/2020 21:16

The terms white and black were created hundreds of years ago to describe differences in skin colour and superiority. A lot of people identify with being black or white, but there are not many people who actually have black or white skin. The terms also don't cover people who have heritage from multiple continents.

I think everyone should be able to identify however they want and this is in no way criticising the BLM movement, but I am uncomfortable that everyone should be expected to accept the terms white and black and be identified as such by others.

OP posts:
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Am I being unreasonable?

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tinkiiev · 10/06/2020 22:34

I agree, OP. It is so simplistic and reductive.

With BLM though, I can see the point. There needs to be a short hand for saying that people from ethnic backgrounds with, mostly, darker coloured skin are treated appallingly badly in many countries, and that this must change.

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Ozzie9523 · 10/06/2020 22:42

Oh for gods sake. The world’s gone mad.

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TheLastSaola · 10/06/2020 22:44

I'm not sure erasing or denying black identity is a good solution to racism.

I think white people recognising that they are not neutral, that they too have a skin colour that influence their position in society is important.

I hate people saying they are colour blind.

Ask a black person what it means to be black, and they will be able to tell you at great length.

Ask a white person what it means to be white, and they will stare at you, then at their shoes, then um and err.

Changing that is big step towards the solution.

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Midsommar · 10/06/2020 22:44

@maddening "we could use the dulux colour chart"

This made me laugh! Cheers for the giggle.

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ekidmxcl · 10/06/2020 22:58

Medically, race can be important in determining susceptability to some diseases. Sickle cell disease is more prevalent in black people than white people for example. Alright, none of the people are literally black or white, they are all shades of dark/light skintones, but medically the description works. I mean, what if someone described themselves as "Latte" or "cinnamon" or "vanilla tan" or "apricot beige". Where would this end? There would be endless, meaningless categories and people could miss out on medical help.

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ZombieFan · 10/06/2020 23:01

The terms white and black were created hundreds of years ago to describe differences in skin colour and superiority

Where is your evidence for this? How do you know it wasn't a phrase to describe the difference between day and night, long before skin colour was an issue.

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kazzer2867 · 10/06/2020 23:26

Hi OP,

Of course no one's colour is black or white. As a black woman I despise the term BAME. I call myself black and am proud to do so. For me the term black (or blackness) which originated in the united struggle of working-class African-Caribbean and Asian communities against racism and imperialism in the 70s. It was the Thatcher government that imposed the term “black and minority ethnic” (BME) to define us all (later to become BAME). To me black describes the struggles of my parents when they came to this country and the sacrifices they made. Also, I don't want to be associated with a made up Thatcher acronym for a community with differing needs.

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Squirrel134 · 10/06/2020 23:48

@OP it would be lovely to choose what 'colour hue' you identify with but incredibly impractical for everyone.
@srownbkingirl I also prefer the term 'brown' to black - no one is black-skinned. I am milk chocolate (using the kids biscuit colour wheel), or as my white MIL said a brownie (yes, she was being inadvertently racist; but the brownies in the 70s wouldn't let me join - so I own that word now). Being cinnamon brown is sounds like a nice option.
But I am happy to identify as BAME as it covers a wider range of ethnicities, and I felt Asians and North Africans were left out of BME and many are still discriminated against.

And you are right in 'black' or asian & polynesian nations no one says black etc. just dark, lighter etc. Furthermore, as mentioned in another thread those with lighter skins are considered more beautiful, and in some cases have more 'power and opportunities' just because.

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GingerScallop · 11/06/2020 00:14

I think everyone should be able to identify however they want
Not sure what you mean by this. If you mean a "white" person should be able to say they are black (and it has happened), then I would find it problematic because it's not just a name but also a history and a daily experience. Yes people can call themselves brown or blue or whatever (I occasionally cheekily refer myself as melanin rich and dh melanin deficient. It's fairly accurate, no?) but that won't automatically dissolve racism. It's not always about the name. It's the associations people attach to (any) categorisation. Even if we use alphanumeric categories, people will find a way if they want to be racists. So for now, I take my label and am proudly and fiercely black and African!

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GingerScallop · 11/06/2020 00:19

Oh, by the way, I sometimes say am caramel. Or copper. Dh is pink with dark beige speckles. Hmmm. When people ask, oh you married a white man? I always say, no. A pink one. So I think I do understand what you are saying

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Holothane · 11/06/2020 00:28

Think I’ll go death grey then, since I look very pale sometimes.

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Unpeufatiguee · 11/06/2020 07:09

A few scathing responses here OP, as to be expected, and PinkiOcelot wins it for me, so I am now officially Peach.

That said, I do get what the OP means. 'Black' and 'white' are very stark and divisive terms. 'Non-white' was coined as a descriptor presumably to try to address the derogatory (in some minds) implications of 'black', and also presumably because what do you call yourself if you are not pure white or black, but of a non-white ethnicity, or parents of different ethnic backgrounds?

You see. It is a minefield when you even try to start categorising people by skin colour.

Don't shout me down here but animals are far easier to describe. Dog. Ok. And then we have myriad breed descriptors. And account for cross-breeds. Apart from the stigma attached to a couple of aggressive breeds, with all the others there's little or no hierarchical implication if you are, say, a spaniel or a sausage dog.

But then again, there aren't a pack of mean, dominant dogs who for millennia have exploited and abused all the ones different to them.

This is what current 'white' people struggle with. It doesn't matter how respectful your attitude may be to all the other breeds - by genetic and cultural association, you are ultimately tainted with the crimes of others in the bad pack, whether historical or current.

And non-white people (numerically the dominant group in the world) are variously dispersed. There is extreme and institutionalised racism against darker-skinned groups in some non-white groups. But this isn't exposed and resisted in the same way as white supremacy.

Basically, as a civilised human being, not seeing skin colour just seeing people, who would want to be labelled 'white'? Nobody ever wants to be judged by the colour of their skin.

The crucial point here, though, is that while the 'white' label might chafe as an uncomfortable potential slur on your character, being 'black' can mean you get killed in the street for nothing.

And that's a whopping difference.

So, being white, you don't get the option of complaining about being labelled. Because whether you asked for it or not, and whether you are decent or not, you're in a way better position than many others, simply by dint of the colour of your skin.

I can say lightly that I'm peach. But that doesn't change anything.

(Not unless we start a Peach movement and ethnic identity. 'We refuse to be labelled as racists before proven. So we are not white.')

But even that risks insult to non-white people under much more real and brutal attack. So best not to.

The only way forwards is to bring up our children celebrating individual identity and delighting in difference between people, including the colour of their skin.

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Thisbastardcomputer · 11/06/2020 07:17

I'm white and would much prefer to have coloured skin, I like the colour Megan Markle is.

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VettiyaIruken · 11/06/2020 07:25

@Whatisinaword

VettiyaIruken white is generally associated with people of mainly Caucasian origin with light skin and black is generally associated with people of African origin who have dark skin. I have heard the term black used widely for anyone with brown skin or darker but that seems to depend on where the person is from

Thanks but I actually meant your ideas about alternatives to black and white.
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motherheroic · 11/06/2020 07:28

This is what happens when someone is too woke. Coming from a black woman.

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00100001 · 11/06/2020 07:33

It's funny how an white woman who wantstto identify as black is considered racist or taboo or stealing identities, cultural appropriation etc
But a male wanting to claim to be a female (I'm talking biological sex, not gender) is allowed to do that and if females complain, they're abused or harassed and called terfs etc.

Pisses me off.

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Camomila · 11/06/2020 07:56

Just asked DH who is Asian what he thinks of the term BAME and had a confusing 5 minute conversation where he thought I was talking about the word 'babe'. But yeah, he has no issue with it.

I describe the DC as mixed race on here as its shorter to type but in real life I tend to describe them by mine and DHs family nationalities.

When DS1 was a toddler we had a song for him that went "daddy is brown, mummy is pink, DS is a little toffee" Blush

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HalloumiSalad · 11/06/2020 08:06

I saw a programme on a South American country once about it's culture (aaaaages ago). I think it was Brazil. You've reminded me of it because I've if the things I really liked was that referring to someone's skin colour was as natural a way to describe them as say 'long brown hair, green eyes' or whatever. But the fun but was they had different words for all the different shades and tones. I remember thinking it was like Inuits having many different words for kinds of snow. The words weren't loaded with political meaning derogatory or otherwise either because the population was so mixed.
Whereas here the language for it is so poor, you're left with black, White, maybe brown skinned but it's such a minefield people often tie themselves in knots trying not to use someone's skin as an identifying description.
It would be great if our language was as rich as Brazil's in this regard and there was less historical/ cultural baggage attached to it all so we could freely use it without putting anyone down.

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MockersGuidedByTheScience · 11/06/2020 08:23

We need Macca and Jacko to sing:

Melanin and Albumin
Live together in perfect
etc

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kazzer2867 · 11/06/2020 09:44

@Thisbastardcomputer

Hi. I think you need to look at the history around being called coloured.

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FluffyKittensinabasket · 11/06/2020 09:57

I’m going to refer to myself as a polar bear from now on.

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Unpeufatiguee · 11/06/2020 10:56

Let's face it - everything is going fubar at the moment, and this debate in the streets seems to be creating new rifts more than it is healing old. It feels very sad. I'm not sure how attacking horses and police is going to make things better.

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NotEverythingIsBlackandWhite · 11/06/2020 11:12

"I think everyone should be able to identify however they want"
I don't, whether that be colour, sex or whatever. So, does that mean a person who would normally be classed as, say, white, could self-identity as black or vice-versa? Hmm

A lot of people identify with being black or white, but there are not many people who actually have black or white skin."
So what terms would you use instead when referring to a collective of people by the colour of their skin? Pink, ecru, yellowy, light brown, dark brown?

I am not in the habit of referring to myself by skin colour but, if required to do so, as a collective, I am nearest to white.

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Givingup123456 · 11/06/2020 11:31

I would like to identify as ducke egg blue Hmm

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srownbkingirl · 11/06/2020 12:21

FWIW, I think because of where and how I grew up, calling me a Black person and expecting me to understand 'blackness' is akin to calling a Spanish person Italian or someone from Malaysia, Chinese or a German to relate to being British.

I know it makes it easier to class people into groups but it breeds laziness in many cases as people are treated as a homogenous group rather than individuals.

I don't find the word itself offensive or negative (Why should I?) and if it was just about skin colour, then fine but it's also about culture and experience and it's not my culture. Black culture (as I've heard a million times from Black people online and offline) is foreign to me. There are stereotypical similarities but I have a completely different culture and experience and some Black people who've travelled to my country experience it as foreigners. It's new to them, it's different and some of them talk about their experience on youtube. There, they're as much foreigners as any White person, the difference is that we share similar skin colour and they won't experience racism. They'll actually be treated better by most people once they speak ('foreign accent') and some will refer to them by the same (non-derogatory) term we use to describe any foreigner from the west, regardless of colour.

I find it amusing and sometimes frustrating that I'm expected to know, understand, relate to and accept being black just because I happen to have a similar skin colour. I, too, learn what it means to be "black" in the west but I didn't have the same 'struggles'. Our struggles are different. Yes, in the west, we share the same 'racist people' struggles but there, we don't (for example) have the struggle of black fathers not being around (families are usually intact with parents often playing traditional, conservative roles. The absent father concept, unless where a father has died, is an exception), black people being incarcerated more (we're all "black people" there so those who are incarcerated are mainly because they've committed a crime. Nothing more), black people having less opportunities when it comes to education, finance, employment (again, it's not so there. Less opportunities, employment, education is to do with class/money and connection - people you know. Nothing more); black women dying more from childbirth or being affected more by a disease (same principle), etc.

We're both the elite and the dirt poor. We both live in mansions and slums. We're both multi billionaires and paupers, educated and uneducated, well-traveled and not, have access to the best facilities/systems and not. We're both the celebrities and the outcasts, the ones in power and the powerless, the police force and the public, the CEOs and the cleaners, the kings/queens and the subjects...and everything else inbetween (We mustn't forget those somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. I'm just referring to both extremes). We just don't have middle class, lower class, working class, upper class systems the way it is seen in the UK. The UK class system seems to be like checkpoints (I could be wrong) but there, it's like a ladder. The more money you have the higher you are and vice versa. There are people on every rung and you can move up or down anytime you gain or lose your financial status.

Here, I find that the 'black experience' is put on me instead and I'm expected to feel downtrodden, oppressed, marginalised, etc....usually by Black people who don't wish to accept that I don't have to have had that experience and some White people assume I have the 'black experience' until they get to know me. I know many Black people face this and I'm not disputing that experience. I stand against racism completely as well as prejudice of any kind.

Another unpopular opinion is that we experience the equivalent of white privilege where I'm from. Any problems we have there isn't because of skin colour. I can relate to it. In a way, I've also been oblivious to it here but have had to be drawn in and learn simply because I'm not anything else to a stranger other than a Black person and have lived here seeing myself from the perspective of being a minority. It still doesn't erase the core part of me who isn't used to it. I've not been shaped by racism.
I also know there's money privilege (which I've had to realise because of this), and connection privilege.

Is there colourism, yes but it isn't anywhere near as prevalent and insidious as it is in the west or as racism is. I'm of the darker-brown shade and I've had 1 or 2 people say (unintentionally) colourist statements to me but it didn't affect me till I moved here and realised what it was. I've known two or 3 people who bleach their skin to look 'lighter' or 'brighter'...not to be white. The same way white people tan. I've never had a problem just because I'm dark-brown and I've never known or heard of anyone who lost an opportunity because of that (except in the sex/escort industry, and it goes both ways but that's another topic). It's the same as being ginger or 'ghostly pale' (no offense meant please). Some people may take the mickey and depending on who and how it's said, the recipient even finds it funny and joins in the banter but it doesn't affect lives in a serious way. Those who're ginger or very pale also talk about themselves in a self-deprecating way just like those who are very dark there but it's not something that makes them fear for their safety or mental health in general.

There, dark brown, medium brown, light brown and very fair skinned people all have the same opportunities and are all seen as equal and either gorgeous or not (depending on personal preference) and our standard of beauty is not exactly the same as the western's.

Yes, we copy the west a lot because they influence everything but things are significantly different in majority of places where I'm from.

We also have the problem of tribalism and while this is an effect of British colonisation, it's still among people of the same colour. It's similar to the issues Scottish, Irish and English people have.


My ethnicity is African. I don't tick Black. I may tick the box because they're usually placed together or tick 'other' or leave it empty or write 'African' depending on my mood. If I have to describe myself, I say brown or brown-skinned and have no problems with people saying that (Colour or shade description isn't a loaded concept where I come from and I don't find it so. I know some people here do use it in a derogatory way but the intended offense is lost on me, like water off a duck's back. I'd just look at the person in a 'I have no idea what you're on about' way or say something like 'Yes you're correct, my skin is literally brown. May I help you?' and go about my day. I find that it disempowers the person and they have nothing more to say. I rarely experience this though and have mainly done so twice online for the latter. The former reaction was once offline.

Where I'm from, Black people (usually from the US but also those in the UK - they are the most visible in the media) are seen as a different group of people and we watch their movies like we watch White people's. They call themselves Black or Black-Americans or African-Americans, so we refer to them as that. Otherwise we'd just say Americans, etc. It's just easier to align with being Black in the west because everybody else sees you that way but among ourselves (or people who come close to us), we don't. We're [insert country] or Africans who have different cultures and do things differently.

This is not a slight against Black people (as some often think it is), it's not in a bid to disassociate from blackness (We're happily all of it). It's just facts. We know about the slave trade (We sold them) and there are no words to describe how horrible it is to have displaced people from their place of origin for them to become slaves but slavery honestly still happens where I'm from, in a milder way though but since it's "black on black", it's not racism or seen as slavery. It's classism, which has everything to do with money and connection. Nothing else. It's not even colourism as anyone fair or dark can be rich or poor or somewhere inbetween and there are as many fair 'slaves' and bosses as there are dark ones. Colour doesn't come into it. If you have money, you're treated better. Simple. If you have enough money (not necessarily rich), you can also own a "slave'. In fact, as long as you have someone who's poorer than you or in a less favourable position than you and they're willing to come work for you, you're in. It isn't something left for the rich alone. How they're treated is up to you and it's often not good which is why I say they're 'slaves'. They're often treated like scum in some places and ignored in the background in others. This isn't the case for all of them but it's significant enough to be generalised.

This is part of my work where I'm from - to get people to be treated with respect and dignity regardless of how poor they are; to give 'slaves' in the guise of domestic workers (people there will vow to the ends of the earth that it isn't what they are) rights as official work employees. Because they come from much poorer families (usually from more rural places/villages or urban slums) and are often in domestic roles doesn't mean they should be treated as third class citizens who are receiving favours from their Sirs/Madams, when they're the ones doing the actual work, often back breaking ones. Someone's welfare should not be left in the hands of luck - whether you get treated well or not by the family you're working for. They should be a protected group but this will be a while before it changes. Those in power benefitting from their services will not agree to this.

That some of these bosses are their family members or help their family members and they're expected to grovel and be thankful for anything given to them, doesn't mean they don't deserve to be paid what they're actually worth nor do they deserve to be physically, mentally, verbally, emotionally and sexually abused (which many go through).

I say all this because while we know slavery happened in the west and black people are still feeling the effects (hence the 'black experience'), some people are actually still going through it where I'm from and it's often seen as normal. As I said, we have different struggles.

FWIW, when I say "We", I mean those I've known, those I've seen or come across and those I've met through them. Others may think differently. I don't speak for everyone as it's too diverse a place to dare.

Why not refer to people by their skin colour or actual country or continent of origin? (Asians have managed to have this, why not Africans. Where I'm from, an asian person is basically a white person from Asia but Asians don't accept being White because they have a remarkably different culture and experience and they aren't referred to as such. It's the same as Africans).

I know it won't happen anytime soon because the history of 'White' and 'Black' people is more than just being convenient and able to identify someone's medical needs, etc. It's a form of division (which possibly stems from when they first landed in Africa) and a bid to continue dehumanizing others by putting them in polarised categories.

I do wonder why so many negative things have black or dark attached to their names.

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