Wearing a facemask when shopping

[Cam77]

I have seen a few people do this. I know the advice is not to do it (or that it is unnecessary), but having spent the morning researching this, I believe the advice is not really "based on the science" but rather social, political, economic factors have been pushed to the fore. I'll start with this, which is typical of advice we've been given the past month and IMO perfectly supports the case for wearing facemasks in certain situations (even though its trying to do the very opposite)：

www.bbc.com/news/av/health-51881555/coronavirus-do-face-masks-actually-work

The lady in the video, like most other health experts in the West (note not in the rest of the world) is advocating against the use of facemasks for the general public when out and about. For me the key sentence is this: (50 seconds in).
"But logically, if you're not close to other people, they're not coughing and sneezing on you, then a facemask isn't necessary"

I have heard variations of this a hundred times. "Facemasks probably aren't very useful". "They will only be of very little use" "Some people won't dispose of them correctly" etc.

Problem - in certain situations, eg shopping, people are close to you. Either through lack of care (often) or sometimes unavoidably, people are often not adhering to the 2 metre guidelines. Therefore there is a significance chance of people encroaching close to you (have found this often). And then there is a chance (although small) of a sudden cough or sneeze. Is that person infected? You don't know because symptoms can take quite a few days to emerge.

The above is of course why they are/were being worn in this crisis by billions of people outside of the West, often under threat of official sanction for not doing so (not to mention social disapproval). The argument against use of facemasks for, eg supermarket shopping, is not "the science" it is Western societies partial/modified application of "the science".

Of course I get the argument about healthcare workers being priorities (if only the government had given a damn about the NHS prior to the beginning of the crisis). However, one person from a family wearing a mask once a week for an unavoidable, often crowded, supermarket trip in which two metres distancing cannot always be adhered to? Maybe this would have been the more responsible action and advice?


Further reading:
"Why Telling People they don't need facemasks backfired"
www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-masks.html

"Why some countries wear facemasks and others don't"
www.bbc.com/news/world-52015486

[greathat]

Someone in my village is just making cotton ones and giving them away. She says they're just for peace of mind... let's hope she's not a carrier and people are sticking on their faces stuff her hands have been all over

[Crazycactuslady]

The advice comes from 2 places:

1. There are not enough certified face masks to supply the NHS, so chances of getting a legitimate, certified N95 or above is slim. Uncertified masks will likely do sod all as they won't have been tested - amazon and eBay are full of shite right now.

1. Some masks stop the virus being exhaled, some stop it being inhaled. A mix of the two in a situation is fairly pointless. To stop both is impossible - you may as well duct tape a bag over your head.

The hand sewn masks are a nice idea, but essentially pointless unless they have a pocket to insert a filter into (this stuff is in short supply as it's being used by legitimate companies). It will serve as a pretty reminder, but cotton etc is too loose a weave to stop the tiny particles... Equally, people remove the masks, touch the outside and don't wash their hands.

[minisoksmakehardwork]

@Cam77, I was replying to @NotEverythingIsBlackandwhite. If they have been able to get some then I know there are places would gladly put their own orders in.

I'm currently sewing some for DH for work, even if he only wears it once and chucks it in a bag for washing. I need him to stay safe. I'm going with something is better than nothing. So when the NHS staff are having to utilise bandanas etc to cover their own faces, at least he will have similar sort of protection to that. I did also wonder whether cutting down some of the charcoal extractor fan sheet I have to make disposable inserts for them would be an additional layer but I can't find any research that anything like that has yet been tried successfully.

[BodiesMakeForGoodFertiliser]

I am really curious about research into face masks after all of this because at this time scientists, medics and other just simply can't agree whether face masks are yay or nay.

[lowlandLucky]

I wore a mask when shopping the other day, i still remembered to wash my hands many times whilst wearing it

[bridgetreilly]

I have not worn a face mask.

I think the big thing they definitely help with is not touching your face. Supermarkets are places where the virus could easily be on all kinds of surfaces which you then touch with your hands. What you need to be able to do is wash or antibac your hands before they get near your mouth or nose. With a mask on, that's much easier to achieve. And it doesn't need to be a surgical grade mask, because you're not relying on it to stop airborne transfer from coughs and sneezes. It's enough of a physical barrier to stop fingers!

[RevolutionofourTime]

I live in HK. I would say upwards of 95% of people are wearing face masks when out. This has been the case since late January. Many clusters of infection in HK have been traced to social gatherings where people were not wearing masks: nightclubs, weddings, temples.

Studies show that we touch our face, on average, 23 times per hour. Once you are used to wearing a face mask (which takes a few days), you touch your face much less frequently. There is also no chance of wiping your nose with your fingers, or putting fingers in your mouth, both of which are important vectors of transmission.

Even basic masks (not N95) help in this respect, provided you put them on and take them off in the right way (using elasticated strings), adjust them properly around nose, wash hands before and after touching them, and make sure you know which side is in/out (the coloured side is out).

Crucially, they need to be changed very often. On a typical day you would need at least 3 of them, to change them after every meal time. So you need to buy large boxes of them, not just buy one at a time as I saw in French pharmacies last month. That’s pointless.

We are wearing N95s at the moment, which are better, but these are uncomfortable as they’re very hot and have negative pressure, so your breathing is an effort. It’s not unbearable- DCs aged 11 and 8, and I, wore them on a 13 hour flight back to HK - but definitely more of an effort than the cheap disposable kind.

We are moving back to the UK in a few months and I will be bringing loads of masks with us. I don’t care one jot if we get given looks.

[OldQueen1969]

I have been wearing a mask while out for the last two weeks as I am caring for my mother who is terminally ill and housebound. My first was a standard pleated elasticated behind the ears one, I now have a foamy version with a filter. My DP is a body piercer and hyper aware of cross contamination and hygiene - our house is full of industrial grade cleaning and antiseptic products as a general rule. He bought extra masks and gloves back in January just in case and before there was a shortage. We have just enough for the household and they can be washed and re-used.

I got plenty of funny looks to start with - I'm also a vintage Goth so am sure people were mis-interpreting my use of them as some sort of perverse fashion statement. Believe me, the sauna effect is not something I would be embracing out of choice although an unexpected side effect is that the skin on my cheeks and around my mouth seems to be smoothing out - every cloud and all that I guess....

I read the article where HK may have reduced its outbreaks somewhat as mask wearing is quite common, moreso now.

My own son had a bit of a sneer at me and I told him to lay off my little security blanket thank you very much. My attitude is that I am covering all the bases as best I can and will continue to do so unless proven utterly futile. As far as I'm concerned the jury is out somewhat, so if you have a mask, why not wear it.

Oh, and as the virus can also enter through any mucous membrane, including the eyes, close fitting shades aren't a bad idea either.

[JustOneMoreStep]

I think the issue is that most masks are ineffective or at least no more effective that having a scarf cover your mouth and nose. Masks give people a false sense of security, as soon as you've been breathing in them for a few minutes they are wet and soggy. You know what happens when you get a piece of fabric wet and then flap it about in dust (I.e. viable particles) for a while. Much the same happens with the invisable particles (I.e. the viruses which are microscopic) so whereas without a mask a large percentage of those particles might literally have just passed you by, they are now, potentially at least stuck to the wet soggy mask for you to continue to breathe in. Then you have the issue with how people remove this soggy germ laden mask and what they do with it. Only the most specialised masks are trueky effective with this virus (same with any virus) and they have to be changed regularly - those should be dedicated to medical staff who are hands on with infected patients not Joe Blogs to pip out for bread and milk. It is problematic that not all staff in the NHS have access to sufficient PPE but a bigger problem is that not all staff who would benefit from it are trained to use PPE in an effective manner. YABU to think you can sling it on in any haphazard fashion and be protected. Honestly your best bet is to be as sensible and restricted about going out as possible, wash well and cover your face/nose with a scarf which you stick in a hot wash with the rest of your clothes worn for the trip on arrival home

[Namelesswonder]

Wearing one face mask day after day, hour after hour is actually counter productive. You need a new one every few hours. Ideally a new one every time you touch it, as a minimum a new one every time you eat. Really you might as well just put a scarf over your face, it will be just as effective!

[reesewithoutaspoon]

They give people a false sene of security and lead to less hadnwashing
We are fit tested for our masks at work and of the 4 types available (different shapes) only one of them was suitable for me. The other 3 all failed in providing effective protection. The masks are only worn for 2 hours tops as they get moist and potentially contaminated.
The outside of the mask becomes a harbinger of germs and people still touch/fiddle/readjust their masks so they have the contamination on their hands or they dont remove them properly (face down over bin, grasp straps from back, shut eyes and drop into bin without touching the mask itself.immediately wash hands before you touch anything else.

[SimonJT]

You have to physically touch your face to put a mask on/off
You must change your mask everytime you touch it
You can only wear them until they become slightly damp by your breath, so an hour tops
It is unlikely that your mask is sterile
Pathogens find damp places easier to ‘survive’ under a mask or on skin that has recently been covered by a mask is perfect for many pathogens.

[Fallstar]

I wore one to the shops today (a fairly thick decorator's mask with a metal strip to pinch over the nose). We have a pack but not loads so I cleaned it thoroughly with a steam cleaner (both sides) when I got home.

My take is that if I have the virus it will help prevent me spreading it to others and so is therefore better than nothing.

[SimonJT]

@Fallstar So you created a lovely warm, moist environment, that’ll be lovely and germ ridden the next time you wear it.

[Fallstar]

That's scary! Right - will chuck it away and wear a fresh one next time. (I did dry it thoroughly, but still...)

We're all trying to do the best we can with what little knowledge we have, btw.

[Bluntness100]

It’s not about your own germs, but basically it stops you touching your face, so giving you less chance of ingesting the bacteria before you have a chance to wash your hands.

[BodiesMakeForGoodFertiliser]

Most important thing is that it stops you coughing that shit over everyone. That's current concensus where they are mandatory afaik.

This will be first time in history scientists will have such a gigantic amount of data they must come to conclusions what are face masks actually for.

[VallarMorghulis]

A mask may not protect you from infection because you're not using it properly or whatever, but it is useful to avoid transmitting the virus. As we don't know who is infected or not, it makes sense to assume that everyone might be infected, and therefore wear a mask to protect others. I know I will when I go shopping.

Here is a link to the official advice from the WHO on wearing masks: www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks.

[MarshaBradyo]

On R4 expert said a mask is altruistic not selfish ie confirming it’s for others

Shame we’re not all wearing them in the supermarket

[flyingspaghettimonster]

I wear a mask and gloves when I grocery shop. Gloves are pht in in tbe car, tben removed as soon as I have loaded tbe shopping in witbout touching anything, hisband can open from inside. Throw them away in bin outside store being careful not to touch iutsides of them. Hand sanitizer then back in car. If we need a different store I use different gloves. The mask is placed on my dashboard until the following trip (about every 10 days) by which time it should be usable again.

I am doing this as we are a family of asthma sufferers with a few pre existing conditions and only 2/5 have health insurance. As my asthma is the least bad I chose to be the only one of us entering stores etc. Nobody has said anything negative to me, but I also have not seen anyone else taking precautions. We didn't buy our gloves and masks, they were given to us by my husband's employer. I think it is better safe than sorry.

[Duchessofblandings]

Marsha

Was that Insude Scuence today?

Very interesting and informative, guess it’s available on iPlayer (or whatever it’s called now!)

Interesting piece about how dogs can be cross infected too. “Unequivocal”, they said.

[MarshaBradyo]

Duchess yes it was brilliant worth listening to
I might again as I didn’t catch it all

[Sparklingbrook]

I assume when I see people in masks it's because they think they might pass something on. So it's good for everyone else.

But I wonder if they should be out of the house at all.

[Undecided91]

I CANNOT justify anyone for NOT wearing a mask these days! Everyone should wear them when out and about. This is one of the main reasons why China has managed to stop the killer virus in such a short period of time (4months). UK will never stop it so quick if people dont wear masks and gloves and dont self isolate properly

[BodiesMakeForGoodFertiliser]

That's exactly that.
Czech where masks are mandatory now have a motto
"My mask protects you, your mask protects me"
And 300 quid fine if you don't wear one