Help me not be an AIBU neighbour!

[HJ40]

Hello, we have a potentially tricky conversation to have with next door and I’d love some mn ideas on how to broach the subject!

We’ve lived in our terraced house for two years and the fence between us and NDN on one side wasn’t in great shape when we moved in. NDN has lived there forever. She’s fit, healthy and about 70, so whilst older than us, definitely not elderly. We have never seen much of her, but always a friendly ‘hello and how are you’ between us when we do. She has once said something about the fence, in a nice way ‘it’s quite wobbly and you’ll need to do something about it’.

Said fence took a battering in some winds last winter so DH and I have supported it as best we can from our side with some planks which look like ugly buttresses in our garden.

We’ve finally had the fence looked at it as we want to get some work done on our garden and it can’t be saved. It needs to be completely replaced. The biggest problem is that she has some raised beds on her side which just have soil piled up against the wood without a waterproofing and the bottom 50cm is rotten all along.

Despite the fact the ‘back’ of the fence faces us, I’ve rechecked the land registry plans and it turns out it is her fence! Absolutely no doubt about it. Given she’s lived there forever, I suspect she assumes it’s ours because she has the ‘front’ of the fence rather than that she’s trying to be a CF.

DH and I want to remove the temporary buttressing from our garden so we can actually use it, but when we do, the fence will fall down so we need to talk to NDN. I can be a bit forthright so please can you help me with how you’d approach this? Don’t want it to seem like a blame game or holding her to ransom over the fence falling down but ultimately something needs to be done.

(And I don’t know if it helps, but the person we had look at it would do the work so we can offer them as a suggestion but don’t want to seem too pushy).

[morgan200]

The only way you can be sure about the ownership of the boundary from Land Registry plans if if it has what are called 'T' marks.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/land-registry-plans-boundaries/land-registry-plans-boundaries-practice-guide-40-supplement-3

If there are no T marks you cannot be certain. The title register may contain a covenant requiring her to keep and maintain the fence, but you would have to have the benefit of that covenant to be able to enforce it. Believe me boundary disputes are best avoided at all costs and if you can afford to do the fence you will be much better off doing it yourself and ending up with a fence that you like rather than leaving it swing in the wind in the hope she might eventually do something

[itscalledwineflu]

I'd put half towards it , I know what your saying that it's not your responsibility but if you want it done it's the best solution. My NDN asked us to pay half And we were fine with that and got a nice new fence . The other side of our house also needs replacing it's in our list to do (it's a long list )but it's something will need to do . I will ask NDN to pay half if he refuses will do it anyway it's the same with a garden backs into our garden so 3 different neighbours to speak to no idea who's responsible for the fence I've always assumed it's a joint thing .

[HJ40]

Thanks for the replies! Good to get so many varied opinions and as I said earlier, plenty I'd not thought of myself so will factor them in and plan carefully for when we do have that chat.

Sorry if I didn't explain clearly... DH and I finally found the paperwork with the plans ahead of getting someone in to look at doing other bits in our garden. When the guy was round, he commented on the state of the fence and he pointed out that the raised beds and rot mean it needs a lot of work and isn't as simple as replacing a few panels. We weren't intending to replace it, we just kept saying to each other 'we must do something about the fence' and step one was finding the plans.

We've asked the garden man what he would charge to do that separately from the other work and I don't have the quote yet, but will use it as a guide.

Points noted ref. her potential financial situation and I will be kind. As mentioned the purpose of asking is to gather opinions and try and come up with a balanced idea, not go in with something which feels one sided and leads to a falling out.

She does have a gardener round to tend to her garden so I hope she does care enough to want a fence, plus her raised beds are well tended and they would just slide into our garden if the fence falls down. No fence to me is not a good outcome, I hope we can get to a good agreement.

[EvaHarknessRose]

Keep it friendly and factual. Give her time to decide what to do without pressure. And respect that finances in retirement can be tight. My mil by all outside appearances would look comfortably off but is living on a very tight income. I am sure your neighbour will be decent and have the ability to cover it - might be embarrassed to realise it's hers, or might dispute this.

[incendio]

I'd go in and speak to her and let her know it's actually her fence and offer to go halves on it. It is annoying as it's her fence and she was expecting you to pay to fix it when she thought it was yours but I would just pay it to keep the peace. For me the cost would be worth having good relations with a neighbour because it could turn into a nightmare if things go sour.

[HauntedPencil]

I would ask her, she might have some grounds for thinking it's your fence if she's said so. She can't have erected the fence in the first place for eg, who did?

But she's not obliged to replace it, nor are you to prop it up.

[Mymadworld]

I'd go round and tell her that you will need to remove the supports and it will mean the fence is likely to fall down, kindly explain that it's her fence but you appreciate this isn't the best time of year to be paying for a new fence so can hold off wait until after the NY if she'd rather. Unless this causes big rows, I'd just leave it with her a month or so then revisit when you're ready to remove the supports and if she's still not offering to replace it, that might be the time to offer half.

[skybluee]

I'd speak to her about it but very carefully. It may be she has no idea. Or she might. Either way, I'd approach it carefully. Surely she wants a solution too if she's raised it.

Quite honestly I think I'd offer to go halves as I believe it would solve a lot of potential problems. If she sees you offering that when you don't have to it might be the way to a solution. Then it's done and dusted instead of dragging on and a load of problems.

Definitely sit down and talk with her face to face. I don't think I'd take documents or make it official. That might get her back up. You live next door, you can easily pop back to get the documents if she wants to see them or doesn't believe you. But whipping out documents straight away is going to give the wrong impression.

I'd just say you got someone in, had the fence looked at, it's not salvageable, obviously there needs to be a solution but unfortunately it's on her land. Then suggest your solution. Good luck.

[HellenaHandbasket]

I would just tell her what you've said here. On a closer look the fence is her's and according to fence man the lack of waterproofing next to raised beds is causing a problem.

Then if she does nothing, put your own fence up on your side.

[pileoflaundry]

"it’s quite wobbly and you’ll need to do something about it"

There is a reasonable chance that the neighbour is fully aware that it's her fence, especially if she has lived there a long time. She may happily use your nervousness and desire to not fall out as a way of getting you to pay for her fence. Be aware that if you do replace the fence at your expense, it will still be her fence, so she'll be able to paint it, rot it, tear it down at will. The only way to prevent this would be to put up your own fence, next to hers. Although it would probably still end up holding up her fence...

Have you spoken to the neighbour on her other side, and at the top of the garden if she has one? Not specifically about the neighbour, but in general e.g. you are thinking of replacing your fencing, can they recommend anyone, have they changed all of their fencing, how did they agree it with neighbours.

[TressiliansStone]

Can't help you with the negotiation, but the solution to the raised beds is a fence with concrete shutterboard as the bottom tier. Use as many as necessary to bring the wooden tier above the soil.

www.dg-fencing.co.uk/blog.html?pid=97

[dippledorus]

There isn't a requirement to have a fence on a boundary so how the OP can say it's her fence and she has to pay to replace it I don't know.

There will often be a concrete marker of some sort (eg old concrete fence posts) to show the boundary - the plans are unlikely to be accurate enough to show an inch or two of difference as to whether the fence belongs to the OP or the neighbour.

If it belongs to the neighbour, then the OP should just put her own fence up on her side of the boundary. She can't make the lady fix the fence.

[worridmum]

In all fairness there is NO legal requirment for a fence or wall if a brick wall falls down all the owner needs to do is remove the bricks/ pay for any damage they DO NOT need to reinstate a wall / boundary.

So at the end of the day she could simply have the fence removed and have no fence and that would be her right. So if you press her to get a "better" fence she might simply say fuck it and have no fence and then you will have lovely open plan gardens or you having to buy a fence (and install on YOUR land not the boundary since you don't own the boundary) So if you get arsy you may have the expense of paying for a new fence AND losing part of your garden.

[M4J4]

@dippledorus

You’re being a bit of a CF

You want her to pay for the fence now you know it’s hers but before you knew you would have paid for it. And you’re seeking ways to make her pay for it on here.

OP doesn't say she would have paid, you're making that up. She had someone look at it.

You need to look at definition of a CF. why should OP be responsible for two fences and neighbour for none? Neighbour was a CF for telling OP to sort when she moves in.

OP, I do agree with others that you can't force her to put up a new fence so may need to go halves. Also, I would be worried that her beds will rot the next fence as well.

[PinguDance]

Completely agree with GirlsRoolz that whoever cares more will end up paying. That sounds like you so defo be prepared to offer half the cost. Especially as she doesn’t have to fix it so will essentially be doing you a favour by doing anything to it - whether that’s fair or not that’s potentially how she will see it.

[Dodie66]

As other people have said she might not have money to replace the fence. As she is elderly she might only have her pension and no savings. A lot of older people own properties and can’t afford to maintain things. We replace fences both sides of our garden because we didn’t get on with neighbours and wanted to replace the lower fences with higher ones. Have you had a price for it? You will probably find it costs a lot more than you think. Get quotes from several people to compare too

[charlestonchaplin]

I thought the land registry only shows who is responsible for maintaining the border, not who owns any feature near the boundary.

What I mean is that the true boundary may be in her garden whilst the previous owners of your house erected their own fence. Perhaps she took down her old fence when the neighbours erected a new fence, gaining some land and losing a dilapidated fence. She may still have markers of the original boundary in her garden. Perhaps this is unlikely but it isn't impossible.

[knittedjest]

Proceed very carefully and check your attitude. You go in making demands and thinly veiled threats about insurance companies you will never get a fence.

[Girlzroolz]

I’ve got 3 properties and have been involved in having 5 fences replaced over the last 2 years (I know, it sounds absurd).

I’ve had it go every which way. Friendly, belligerent, new build, 40yo fence, fancy fence, wire-and-post fence, brick, timber, I paid, they paid, half each. Here’s what I’ve learnt.

-it’s all going to take a lot longer than you think to be done.
-whoever needs the fence/cares more about the fence will pay for it (or a proportion of it) regardless of the law.
-everyone thinks their mental image of a fence is the only and obvious one.
-there are eleventy billion different functions/features a fence could have. Don’t assume your side and their side achieve the same purpose.
-people get funny about fences. Even otherwise normal people.

The last neighbour who innocently rang me to chat fences was surprised to find me instantly weepy. Fence research, fence discussions, fence contractors, fence shenanigans and fence disputes have turned me into a wreck.

Proceed carefully OP, and prepare to be very patient.

[LakieLady]

We ended up paying for a fence fully on our neighbors side as they refused to.

The same happened with us. The houses were built in the 1930s with chestnut paling and then a hedge planted along it. By the turn of the century, the palings had rotted through and the hedge had got all gappy at the bottom.

All next door would do was patch up holes with bits of old board and stuff when their (large) dog got into my garden. The man was abusive and offensive and refused to discuss it. After an incident when his dog crashed through the hedge and practically ripped my small dog a new arse (he actually removed fur from near his bum!), I wrote them a polite letter suggesting we discuss sorting out the boundary and saying that, if we could reach a mutually agreeable solution, we would happily consider contributing towards the cost.

Nothing, nada, not a word. In the end, we had the cheapest dog-proof solution put up: chain link with metal posts. It was put up alongside the hedge and most of the time you can't actually see it. You only know it's there when the hedge has been cut back hard on our side.

Many years later, we replaced the fence at the bottom of the garden jointly with the neighbours at the back. That involved digging out some of the original hedge.

The CF next door had the cheek to ask if he could have some of the hedging we'd dug out to plant in gaps in the hedging at the front of his house! Needless to say, we didn't give it to him.

[oh4forkssake]

I'm afraid I'd suggest putting some money towards it. Can she see the fence on her side? We couldn't (it's behind mature bushes) so didn't know the real state of it until it was pointed out to us.

[eddielizzard]

What fanomoninon said.

[ineedtostopbeingsolazy]

We replaced our fences and we have the 'nice sides' is this not how it's supposed to be?
We paid for the fences so we put the flat sides on our side.

[Collaborate]

The law says that she cannot be forced to repair the fence unless the deeds say she must maintain it, and she is the original party to the deed that said that. Chances are she's not.

So it's her fence, and she can destroy it if she wants by piling earth against it. What neither of you can do is force the other to repair it. She must however keep the soil on her side of the boundary. She has to retain her land.

If you want a fence of your choosing you'll have to either pay for it yourself or go halves.

[Bobaboutwhat]

You definitely need to show her the land registry plans - she can’t protest that the fence isn’t her responsibility if its there in black and white. It’s frustrating that the fence was put in the wrong way though, like you say she should have the ‘bad’ side if its hers.
I would do a bit of reverse psychology and come across as being apologetic and concerned about the situation - “We are so surprised that the fence is yours and has obviously been put in the wrong way, we’re so sorry but its here on the plans” Show her the plans. “We just dont know what to do as the fence desperately needs replacing, especially as its rotten at the bottom for some reason” (ahem). Hopefully she will accept the situation and responsibility!