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AIBU?

To think that this government wants to prevent social mobility?

109 replies

lottieandmia22 · 20/02/2018 09:18

They peddle sound bites about hardworking people and then close all the children's centres. Therefore stopping disadvantaged children from starting out on a more level playing field. Of all the things I hate about the Tories this issue makes me the most angry.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/20/childrens-centres-closed-austerity-council-cuts-tracy-brabin?CMP=sharebtnn_fb

OP posts:
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CakeOfThePan · 20/02/2018 17:14

saska Yes thats what happens at my school too, unless the bright ones who should be at grammar school are taught to pass the exam they fail. Which leads to the wrong kids in grammar struggling and the ones that would absolutely thrive feeling like failures .

I get it worked, but it doesn't now. My eldest is the kind that would thrive at grammar, his friends will (as certain as you can be) be going as they have been tutored from year 4 as well as being ludicrously clever. But we can't afford it .

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caroldecker · 20/02/2018 17:51

Grammer schools today cannot be compared to 40+ years ago as there are significantly less, so competition for places is far higher.
Meredinto How does one provide social mobility to the average person, except by reducing the working class? You can increase average income/wealth, but the average 'class' can only move up if the number at the bottom decreases.

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CuboidalSlipshoddy · 20/02/2018 21:04

Grammer schools today cannot be compared to 40+ years ago as there are significantly less, so competition for places is far higher.

And yet comprehensive schools have university take-up far higher than the 20% grammar schools ever managed. And I don't see any huge emigration from London to Kent to take advantage of their grammar schools, in large part because educational outcomes in Kent are distinctly unimpressive.

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CuboidalSlipshoddy · 20/02/2018 21:05

How does one provide social mobility to the average person, except by reducing the working class?

I hate to break it to you, but that's exactly what's happened.

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caroldecker · 20/02/2018 21:38

Cuboidal More people go to university due to more places. There was not a large number of universities sitting empty because people were too thick to come in.
Social mobility is generally meant to move people up, not just reduce the bottom.
Social mobility is the movement of individuals, families, households, or other categories of people within or between social strata in a society. It is a change in social status relative to one's current social location within a given society.

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BubblesBuddy · 20/02/2018 21:42

There were far fewer universities 40 years ago. That’s why more go to university now, regardless of school type. The big problem is that we have areas where few get to a good university. We have areas where there are not enough good schools.

The tv programme looking at the deprived gifted children last week surely told us that ambition must be ramped up and children must be enabled to look for education and high value work outside their immediate area. One girl was told by a teacher she might not fit in at a grammar school 6th form. She will fit in. She has ambition and wants to be a doctor. The gifted artist wanted to be a tattoo artist and a gifted mathematician wanted to be a chef. Obviously these two could do better with guidance. They did all have parents who cared but some had no idea of how university funding works and very little idea of career options. It will be interesting to see if these children do become socially mobile. Several had a disabled sibling or parent and seemed to assume a caring role and whether they are held back by that will be interesting to see.

In order to get social mobility, those who can get onto the better university courses must actually be given every chance to achieve that. They need confidence and belief in their ability. With good teaching and ambition, more and more children can succeed.

We will always have a minority for whom social mobility won’t happen - for a huge variety of reasons. However some movement is possible if young people grasp the opportunity of education.

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BubblesBuddy · 20/02/2018 21:45

Cuboid is right in that there has already been huge social mobility. Those who are mobile have done it. What we need is even more included and not being left behind because of poor schools, poor advice etc.

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CuboidalSlipshoddy · 20/02/2018 22:12

Social mobility is not a zero-sum game, which is why comparisons with the past are slippery. Let's consider "There was not a large number of universities sitting empty because people were too thick to come in."

I don't know the details of university entrance of 40 years ago, which I think was your reference point, but I do know about 35 years ago. There certainly wasn't a huge queue outside universities of qualified applicants unable to fit in the lecture theatre; for practical purposes anyone who applied with minimal A Levels was able to do a degree.

You could do a perfectly reputable degree (anyone who claims that the CNAA didn't do their job well is an idiot) at what are now top post-92s, and get funding for it too, with two Es at A Level. I've just looked up the place that offered me two Es in 1982, and the equivalent course now asks for BBC. Are you saying that 2Es at A Level in 1983 then is equivalent to the 112 points (BBC) now?

People didn't apply, which is a completely different problem. The main thing that blocks access to higher education, and more broadly social mobility, is lack of information and lack of confidence. I've posted under another name on the topic, but in general anyone who has manned a stand at an open day will know how badly advised 17 year olds are, and that's the students who get as far as an open day at an older university.

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tillytrotter1 · 20/02/2018 22:18

The greatest promoter of social mobility was the grammar school system, and who destroyed that? How many people on here, or their parents, grandparents got a real leg-up from that system?

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meredintofpandiculation · 20/02/2018 22:22

Meredinto How does one provide social mobility to the average person, except by reducing the working class? You can increase average income/wealth, but the average 'class' can only move up if the number at the bottom decreases. By having a system where the average person in working class is as likely to have a reasonable career as the average person born to advantaged parents; conversely the average person born to advantaged parents is as likely to find themselves in a minimum age job as the average person of less advantaged parents.

Obviously if the supply of jobs at each level remains the same, more opportunities for the working class means fewer for upper middles.

I don't believe complete social mobility is achievable, therefore we should be working to make it matter less - to decrease the discrepancy between the highest and lowest earnings.

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CuboidalSlipshoddy · 20/02/2018 22:56

Obviously if the supply of jobs at each level remains the same

There isn't the slightest reason to believe that's true.

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Thehogfather · 20/02/2018 23:00

We won't have social mobility until all children have equal access to a suitable education. Outside the high funding bubble of London, it isn't the mc dc that get the mediocre schools, it's the low income and deprived dc. Schools that rarely have any aspirations for pupils above doing ok.

Near me it is considered a huge achievement if a dc goes into a reputable trade, or a-levels etc. That's partly aspiration, which education certainly should be raising, or at least not lowering. Partly because to do so after such a dire school is genuinely pretty praiseworthy.

But that won't change because it suits the mc to select by house price.

Zero hour contracts are another thing that needs to go, but as it is only low income earners that suffer at everyone else benefits, it won't happen.

Child maintanence enforced as council tax is, again won't happen, as it's mainly single mothers that lose out and men benefit.

As to sure start, I agree with pp's. But, I live in a deprived area and I don't think it's purely lots of mc mums that put locals off, if at all.

Ime there's always one official person who seems to do that. Whether that's some patronising twat, or someone offering advice who clearly has no idea of reality. And unfortunately this type is always the most noticeable, so people stay away under the reasonable assumption they're representative. Plus, when Mrs on-a-quest- to-educate- the peasants has offended lots of local mothers, and they stop going and tell all their friends why, the mother who could really benefit from the other lovely staff will also stay away.

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unlimiteddilutingjuice · 21/02/2018 00:43

Social mobility happens most easily when there is a general improvement in living standards and more equal living standards.
If working class people have job security, good wages and a general sense of confidence- their children wil move into the middle class in greater numbers.
Partly because they will be suffering less disadvantage, partly because social mobility just feels like less of a big deal and partly (and this is an important one) because middle class people are less neurotically competitive.
This is what happened in the 60's and 70's.
For people inclined to overstate the importance of the early years- its worth remembering that those people who were first generation middle class in the 60's were Truby King babies- brought up on a strict timetable and cuddles rationed!
When you have widening social inequality (as now) social mobility slows down because middle class parents get grabby and do everything they can to horde what opportunities exist. They erect whats known as a "glass floor" to prevent downward social mobility and in doing so, stand in the way of others moving up.

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caroldecker · 21/02/2018 00:55

unlimited The reasons for the higher social mobility of the 60' and 70's is complex. Much derives from grammer schools and a huge increase in middle class jobs with a reduction in working class jobs as technology grew productivity. If the socialists had not fucked it up, we may have better position today, as they do in Germany. However...

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WhirlwindHugs · 21/02/2018 06:56

I say this all the bloody time, but middle class parents were MEANT to use children's centres! It was never, ever, supposed to be only poorer parents that went. Everyone was meant to use them, so parents could talk to each other and swap tips. Middle class parents have their own crappy parenting habits too - have you seen the batshit level of helicopter parenting advice some people dole out on here?!

When I had my first I was very young, very skint and also middle class. We used the childrens centre a lot. It was attended by a huge mix of people. It was brilliant.

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unlimiteddilutingjuice · 21/02/2018 07:11

caroldecker I will give you the increase in midde class jobs but I take issue with Grammar Schools.
The pratice of assigning 3/4 of the nations children to vocational education in Secondary Moderns at age 11 was predicated on the idea that only 1/4 of kids were going to go onto middle class jobs.
It was therefore a barrier to the increase in the middle class because it deliberately prepared only a few children for that outcome.
More important is the strength of the trade unions at that time- which raised the general level of working class living standards and narrowed the gap to be crossed.
I agree Geremany did better- they had a system of workers representation on company boards. Maybe the socialists "fucked it up" by losing.

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unlimiteddilutingjuice · 21/02/2018 07:14
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sashh · 21/02/2018 07:29

The 11+ was the biggest creator of social mobility

Only because the establishment NEEDED better educated people to fulfill lower management roles, the few that got in to uni bucked the system.

Have a look at the history of it, quite interesting.



OP

The pope is also catholic and bears shit in the woods.

The main thing that blocks access to higher education, and more broadly social mobility, is lack of information and lack of confidence.

So true, I taught a girl who wanted to be a vet, her choice for A Level was Chemistry, Biology and Business Studies, the latter was because she wanted her own vet's practice. I did try to persuade her not to, and to look at entry for veterinary science courses.

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Headofthehive55 · 21/02/2018 07:40

There is a genetic element to academic ability. So you are more likely to find more middle class parents having children who meet their milestones.

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Madonnasmum · 21/02/2018 07:42

Yup, my sure start experience was pretty similar, full of muddled class mum's not the demographic they were aiming for despite being slap bang in the middle of a council estate.
Also agree with the 11+ aiding social mobility. My DPs benefited from that and pulled themselves out of their incredibly poor and deprived backgrounds. My DF did not have electricity until his family moved into a council house when he was 11.

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CuboidalSlipshoddy · 21/02/2018 07:46

If the socialists had not fucked it up

The largest number of grammar (or "grammer", as you consistently write: I always mistrust people who can't spell the educational policies they are advocating) schools were closed under that noted socialist Education Secretary, Margaret Thatcher. It was a popular policy under the Tory government of the time, and neither Thatcher nor Major, both of whom had good working majorities, made the slightest suggest that it should change.

Let's suppose, just for the sake of argument, that grammar schools were a major engine of social mobility after the war. There's no particular reason to believe it's true (you can make a much stronger case for national service, and certainly for the war more broadly) but let's suppose. The grammar schools as we conceive them were a product of the 1944 Act, so the first cohort to go through them was born in the mid-1930s. As we're being accepting of your argument, let's suppose it has the effect of lifting a significant part of their 20% of the population into middle-class jobs.

Now, roll on a generation, into the early–mid 1970s when that cohort's children are going to secondary school. Who's going to get the grammar school places? Well, disproportionately they will be the children of grammar school parents. Assortive mating is a thing, but not every grammar school boy will have a grammar school girl (for a start off, there are fewer of them) so there will be a large number of households benefitting from the fruits of education and keen for their children to have some more of it. Are they going to get their children into grammar schools? Yes, disproportionately. They value education, they can deliver some of it and, crucially, they're willing to put up with the school being a bit further away and have working patterns which make that OK. Are some children from other backgrounds going to get in as well? Yes, they are. Some of them their parents will refuse to let them go (very much a thing) but yes, a few children whose parents left school at 14 will manage to compete and get in. But rolls another generation, and the effect will be stronger still. And if, by some mischance, the child of the middle-class family don't get into the local grammar, they will in many cases go private (which was, in real terms, cheaper in the 1970s): the glass floor to which someone alludes upthread.

That's why the abolition of grammar schools, or more precisely the improvement of secondary modern schools, in the mid-1970s was so popular. The middle-classes were frightened of secondary moderns, and the working classes realised they weren't going to be getting in and saw the consequences of it.

And that's also why, outside the backwoodsmen, no serious Tory who wants to get elected pushes for the policy. Grammar schools appeal to a certain ageing demographic, who hanker after a lost past. But any policy which says "jam for the 20%, bread and scrape for the 80% to pay for the jam" is electorally doomed, because most people are sensible enough to realise it's not in their interest. And the places where such policies are popular? Everyone votes Tory anyway, so there are no incremental votes.

"I wasn't going to vote Tory, but now I know they want to bring back secondary modern schools I will" said no-one, ever.

Grammar schools only worked, if they did work (and contrary to your simplistic claims, there's no clear body of evidence) because society was undergoing massive change at the time, and a wide range of middle-class jobs were opening up. Social mobility isn't zero-sum, but the economy grew and changed at a much sharper rate in the 1950s than at any time before or since.

The glass floor effect is very real. I can pay, both in folding money and in my time, to achieve educational success for my children, and I am motivated to do so. That value is passed on. There's a bloody good reason why grammar schools have FSM rates of around 1%.

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PiffIeandWiffle · 21/02/2018 07:51

My dad from a well off background passed his 11 plus. My mother from a poor background failed hers. As did all of her siblings except one. Go figure...

It's a test - people pass, people fail. My Dad, from a poorer background, passed & it helped him massively. Maybe your mum & her siblings weren't ready, didn't prepare or just weren't up to it.

If you want to prevent social mobility one sure way is to remove all aspirations, by removing financial goals & trying to insist that earning decent money is bad - which is the whole Labour ethos....

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k2p2k2tog · 21/02/2018 07:54

Totally agree that the Sure Start centres weren't reaching their target group.

We lived in a very mixed area when my oldest was born, the Sure Start centre had loads going on so I took him to various groups over the week. 75% of the people there were not from the deprived areas they were trying to target. Another 20% were from overseas and used the centre to meet people, improve their English and integrate. As we were in a large University city, many of these women had arrived with their partners to work at the Uni or hospital, not as refugees.

You can provide all the facilities, classes and support you want but you cannot force your target group to access it.

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MissWilmottsGhost · 21/02/2018 07:56

I was one of the 'wrong' people attending a children's centre. There were a few of us.

If we hadn't gone there then the one parent from the target group that turned up would have been sitting there alone, then no doubt not coming again. As it was they were welcomed and attended weekly. Then started bringing their friends and colleagues.

We were all gutted when they closed the group. It was successful and doing its job of mixing people from different backgrounds.

Somehow I don't think the statistics reflect the reality. So what if naice middle class mums go? If the point is social mobility how is a group only consisting of people from deprived areas expected to achieve that?

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sixteenapples · 21/02/2018 08:11

Actuallysocial mobility means down as well as up.

Overall the population is better off. There is less hunger, disease, homelessness than there was 100 years ago. Overall the population is better educated.

For people to go "up" others have to go "down" - unless you really believe that everyone can be a doctor and we all have to have the same size house.

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