to consider our catchment school in deprived nearby town

[daisymoo2]

We live in an affluent village where our DC attend the very good state primary school but our catchment secondary school is in a very deprived nearby town. The catchment secondary school seems to be well led and is working hard at helping all children achieve despite the difficult catchment area but it's still bottom of the league tables for exam results.
DC1 is nearing secondary age. A number of DC1's friends will be going to the catchment secondary and DC1 wants to go there too. Our other option is the private school in the village where we live. We could manage this financially but wonder if it's really value for money and we don't want our DC becoming entitled brats.
AIBU considering sending our DC to the catchment school despite reservations about the peer group and exam results?
PS: We're in the country so these two schools are our only two options.

[thiskittenbarks]

@BertrandRussell I don't think the schools location was irrelevant actually. In fact I think it was very relevant, for lots of reasons. One of which being that OP was asking about a school in a deprived area, close to an affluent area. The school I went to was also in an unfortunately deprived area (a council estate in bottom 5% of Englands most deprived neighbourhoods right next to an area filled with £1-5million houses).
In fact there are a few guardian articles about the school, all of which mention the estate location significant factor.
The school was also looked for the 1990 guardian feature - schools in crisis
"Dr Budgell found that more than 90% of the difference in exam results between schools was accounted for simply by the poverty, gender and final-year attendance of the children who were enrolled there. What was being done by the schools was influencing only the remaining 5 to 10%.
"I'm not saying that schools don't make a difference," he told the Guardian. "There are incompetent teachers, but in order to explain the failing of inner city schools in terms of incompetence you have to make the bizarre assumption that these schools have hired a mass of incompetent teachers while good schools have hired none. There is a volume of evidence that schools are not playing on a level playing field. When you look at these intake factors, the level playing field is more like the side of Mount Everest.""

[VivaLeBeaver]

I was in a similar position and sent dd to the local failing comp. big mistake. She was miserable for five years. The behaviour in the classroom was unreal. To the extent the police came round here to take a witness state,ent after a kid was beaten round the head with a brick.

I was constantly ringing school up to say dd had been smacked round the head with a chair, or punched.

I guess some schools may manage behaviour better. This one certainly didn't.

She came out with good GCSEs. Couple of Cs, a B and the rest were As. But I think she would have done better elsewhere. She said the teachers focused on the kids who were borderline C/d grade and ignored the high achievers like herself. It was hard to concentrate when kids were running round the classroom shouting at the teacher to fuck off, playing tag all lesson, fighting, arsing about.

[BertrandRussell]

"I'm usually not a fan of private schools. But I went to a terrible secondary school on a huge council estate"
No, you went to a terrible secondary school. It's location is irrelevant.

[thiskittenbarks]

Should add that my DP went to the same terrible school as me and now is an academic at Oxford. I've done okay too. But let's just say we bonded all those years ago over how bullied we were for being bright.

[thiskittenbarks]

I'm usually not a fan of private schools. But I went to a terrible secondary school on a huge council estate after going to a lovely outstanding primary. I found it really hard, and so confusing as everything that I was rewarded for at primary was punished at secondary (asking questions, using initiative, speaking up).
If your DC have lots of friends going there they will probably be happy there. But it might be worth seeing how others have found the transition from that primary to that secondary. I'm sure your kids will be fine wherever they go.

[GrimDamnFanjo]

Visit the schools and read the ofsted reports. Check out the pupil behaviour and attitude to learning. What's the bully policy like?

[BeALert]

I went to a bottom of the league tables comprehensive (as did DH). I have three degrees one from Oxbridge. I got pretty good for the time exam results and went straight to a Russell groups uni. Some of my teachers were phenomenal, and even in that school in top sets it really wasn't all about behaviour management.

At my bottom of the league comp any student who looked likely to go to Oxbridge was quickly transferred to one of the other local comps.

None of the teachers were in any way 'phenomenal'. The Maths teacher didn't understand most of the Maths she was teaching. We were taught it by one of the students, who taught himself.

Of 150 in my year, 4 went to university.

[Bekabeech]

Umm one other thing to be aware of with the private school. If it is that small how financially viable is it? Isn't it only going to last as long as the present Head is there?
There have been cases of private schools closing very suddenly.

[sashh]

How good is the private school?

CamperVamp - have you SEEN that Educating programme? Staff are all about the breaking up fights and phoning kids to get out of bed rather than about the teaching

You do know the schools filmed for the TV are in fairly deprived areas. The current one was, "the worst school in the UK".

[sinceyouask]

SinceYouAsk - are you the sort of parent who strives to understand why poor little Johnny throws the desk at the teacher or why Jane tells the teachers and classmates to fuck off when she can't be arsed? Maybe it could all be solved by sitting around singing Kum Ba Yah, pasing round the speaking stick and making Johnny and Jane happier about their choices? Stuff the rest of the class actually getting an educaiton.

No, I'm just not a stuck up bitch. Also, when making a point about the value of education, I make sure that my post is not full of misspelled words. I'd look fucking stupid otherwise.

[campion]

You need to choose the school which suits your child's needs and attitude to education the better.

If you have ideological reasons for avoiding independent education then the choice is already made. Assuming that they are unlikely to become entitled brats unless you let them,why not go and have a look round both schools on a normal working day. Ask to go into classrooms/ lessons and you'll soon get an idea of behaviour and whether there's purposeful activity going on. I'd be wary of a school which isn't willing to be open with you, and only wants to show you the 'shiny' bits/pupils.
So ask them your difficult questions and see what you think of the replies.

But most of all,try to imagine if your child will thrive there.

If they're both no good you'd better move!

[tulippa]

I grew up in a rural area similar to the one you're in - maybe not quite as deprived. I went to the state secondary. I did fine in my gcses (all As and Bs) but I was allowed to coast as these grades were considered good - as I suppose they are. I often wonder how much better I could have done if I'd gone to the private school where I think they would have instilled a better work ethic in me.

[Bekabeech]

I went to a bottom of the league tables comprehensive (as did DH). I have three degrees one from Oxbridge. I got pretty good for the time exam results and went straight to a Russell groups uni. Some of my teachers were phenomenal, and even in that school in top sets it really wasn't all about behaviour management.
Things have improved massively from my day. My DC have gone to a high achieving Comp, and come out with pretty good results so far (the youngest will get the best), and actually my older two tended not to be in top sets - but still on the whole got results the local high achieving selective private schools would be satisfied with.
They are set for all 5 years for Maths, For 4 years for Science, and 2 years for English (and sometimes MFL). Other subjects are mixed ability, but once Options start behaviour improves massively.
It is definitely a better school than some private schools - and I initially chose it over a private school as they seemed pretty similar (all schools have behaviour issues) and the private had an hours commute in traffic.

Some people need tutors even at private schools.

[Hermagsjesty]

I just posted this on another thread but this recent study suggest that once at university, students from state schools actually out perform privately educated students with equivalent grades:

www.timeshighereducation.com/news/state-pupils-on-same-grades-as-private-counterparts-get-better-degrees/2012325.article

So, that suggests some of the other useful life skills a state school encourages (resilience, adaptability, working independently)

[Hermagsjesty]

If my kids grew up with an attitude like yours, Poppy I’d be horrified. I think state school gives young people are massive lesson in understanding people from different backgrounds with different skills and needs. The most important thing my excellent but “rough” state high school taught me was yes, I was bright but being bright wasn’t the only thing that mattered about me.

[BertrandRussell]

Poppy- in the time honored question, "did you mean to be so rude?"

[PoppyPopcorn]

CamperVamp - have you SEEN that Educating programme? Staff are all about the breaking up fights and phoning kids to get out of bed rather than about the teaching.

Oh and SinceYouAsk - are you the sort of parent who strives to understand why poor little Johnny throws the desk at the teacher or why Jane tells the teachers and classmates to fuck off when she can't be arsed? Maybe it could all be solved by sitting around singing Kum Ba Yah, pasing round the speaking stick and making Johnny and Jane happier about their choices? Stuff the rest of the class actually getting an educaiton.

There are losers of all ages - toxic people who exist in schools just as they do everywhere else.

[CamperVamp]

"This is always churned out and it is such total bollocks. Bright children are going to have the odds stacked against them in a school where out of a class of 30, 5 are bright and motivated and the other 25 are disruptive, badly behaved,"

This does not happen in even half way decent Comps in England. There is setting, and behaviour management is WAY more advanced than it was when we were at school.

It is important to separate a crap school form a 'rough' school as BertrandRussell says, and you can do that by visiting, looking at the stats and talking to parents and students. You can't do it from generalising on MN and talking about an experience 20 years ago.

My kids go to a school which MN would consider 'rough'. It does very well indeed by all abilities and behaviour is fine.

[BertrandRussell]

Not like that in England, Poppy.

[sinceyouask]

This is always churned out and it is such total bollocks
Don't be silly. I went to a very rough school (violence, bullying, arson, disruption, low achievement and so on) and did very well.

but your child is still in that toxic environment with the losers
I would be mortified if a child of mine came out with something like that. Even if they achieved amazing GCSEs and A Levels and won an Oxbridge place, if they had ended up with the sort of attitude you display with that comment, I'd be so, so disappointed in them as people.

[PoppyPopcorn]

Yes of course I've heard of setting. It may work differently in England but schools here (Scotland) set for English, Maths and Science for the first couple of years only. As the kids progress towards exams they are by default grouped with people studying for the same exams.

Bright, well behaved and motivated children in a school with a high number of demotivated problem children cannot be kept isolated from that.

[BertrandRussell]

"Bright children are going to have the odds stacked against them in a school where out of a class of 30, 5 are bright and motivated and the other 25 are disruptive, badly behaved, don't give a shit about school and that's if they bother to turn up at all"

Have you heard of setting?

[BeALert]

Exactly what PoppyPopcorn just said.

I was one of those bright kids in a shit school. It was fucking awful.

[PoppyPopcorn]

Bright kids will learn in any environment

This is always churned out and it is such total bollocks. Bright children are going to have the odds stacked against them in a school where out of a class of 30, 5 are bright and motivated and the other 25 are disruptive, badly behaved, don't give a shit about school and that's if they bother to turn up at all. Staff may be brilliant teachers - but rarely get the opportunity to teach as they're so busy firefighting and dealing with the children's ish-oos. Just watch that "Educating Greater Manchester" programme and you'll see it in action. A bright child in that environment is going to have to be incredibly single-minded, determined, proactive and completely unaffected by peer pressure to disregard everything going on around them and excel. I'm not saying it can't be done but most 11 or 12 year olds take the path of least resistance and either join in with the yobs, or sit quietly in hte corner.

I would absolutely opt for the private school in your situation. Yes you can buy additional tutoring with saved money from fees, but your child is still in that toxic environment with the losers.

[Hangryhangryhrmm]

Private, definitely.

They won’t become entitled brats.