DD picked on at school in Reception Class

[WeLikeLucy]

Hi, any views or advice on this would be good please. My DD is the first of my children to start school, so I'm new to dealing with playground antics.

I recently found out from my DD that a girl in her friendship group (let's call her Emma) is being very mean because (I've worked out) she does not like the close friendship my DD has with a girl that she wants to herself (let's call her Jane). Every day my DD says she has been told things like "We don't want to play with you", "You are not our friend", "We are allowed to do this, but you are not", etc (lots of these types of comments and not nice body language). The thing is, my DD is very good friends with Jane, so I don't want to tell her to just go and find another group to play with.

I have witnessed this myself. Every morning Emma is nasty to my DD in front of me - pushes my DD out of the queue and tells her she can't stand with them, and today my DD just said 'Hello' and Emma shouted 'No don't do that' and hugged Jane away from my DD.

As this is happened in front of me, I took Emma to one side and said that it wasn't nice of her to say that to my DD, who just said 'Hello' and that I know she has been saying other things that aren't nice at school to DD. I said if it continues, I will have a chat to her mother about it. I know her mother a little bit.

Did I do the right thing? If I just ignore it, it would look like I'm condoning this behaviour. My DD is not very confident and does not stand up for herself, she just backs away or cries when other children are mean.

[CorbynsBumFlannel]

It could be that Emma doesn't understand that she can be friends with both girls or maybe she just doesn't want to be friends with the ops dd and doesn't want Jane to be playing with the ops dd when she could be playing with her. Either Jane is in on the exclusion or she is being overpowered by Emma. Either way she is going along with it. I couldn't be bothered with it all personally. There are plenty of kids that age that don't push and exclude.

[Lurkedforever1]

aero yy I absolutely agree that I would involve the teacher.

papa insecurity about friendships at 4yrs old is also indiscriminate, not a deliberate personal attack. In all but very exceptional cases Emma will be trying to get rid of Jane because she doesn't understand that Lucy can be friends with them both, and therefore is jealous of time spent with Jane. Yes she needs to learn it doesn't work that way, and her current behaviour is unkind, but not to be labeled as deliberately nasty.

To do so is as unfair and ridiculous as saying Jane is being deliberately weak not to stick up for herself and Lucy is deliberately enabling it by not explaining she wants to be friends with both.

When in reality they are all just being 4 and therefore in need of some adult help.

Dd was the middle child with the first girl acting like Emma and the second quietly trying to manipulate Emma away. And I can assure you neither was/is a nasty child, or have ever been the type to knowingly plan to upset someone else. They were just very young children, and like every child ever born, they made a few social errors along the way.

I suppose it comes down to how you view childrens behaviour. I view unpleasant behaviour as just that, not an unpleasant child.

[CorbynsBumFlannel]

Like pp I would have said a firm 'no pushing please' but dragging up the whole history and threatening to tell her mum was too much. If it's an ongoing issue you need to speak to the school.
I would be encouraging different friends tbh. Jane seems to, at best, be happy to follow along with the exclusion of your dd. There are probably girls in the class that play more nicely.

[Mittens1969]

My DD2 (5, year 1) is in a group of 4 friends, one of them her best friend. She falls out with them and makes up again regularly. That’s what the playground is like. So it will change.

Your DD could do with being more assertive so that she can stand up to girls like Emma. There will be others like her all through her school life. My DD1 used to back away easily and play with her ‘invisible fairies’ when pushed out. She’s had help at school with this, they have a ‘buddy’ system where they ask for girls to play with her if she’s alone. Is this something that could help?

My DD2 can fight her corner and is popular so she doesn’t struggle in the playground.

There will also be other girls in the playground that will be on their own, she’ll be able to make other friends. It helps to get to know the mums a bit, then you can invite friends to play dates. ‘Jane’ might be a different girl without ‘Emma’ around, if you can get to know her mum.

I’m good friends with DD2’s best friend so I am able to hear what her friend’s POV is of any falling outs.

It’s early days, there’s plenty of time for your DD to build friendships with other girls.

HTH.

[TheAntiBoop]

Onewhole

With dd we talked through why she thought her Emma behaved that way. Then dd mentioned the way her Jane just goes along with it. She herself exuded that wasn't very kind either.

We talked though the other kids in her class that she plays with and also the ones she didn't. Turns out there was a girl being left out all the time so we talked about dd playing with her instead. Which she did and they are great friends now and they play more widely with other kids. If her Emma isn't there then Jane wants to play with dd but dd is more wary of her - although still happy to play with her.

In these situations it's very easy to focus on Emma but Jane isn't a passive bystander and understanding the three points of the triangle is useful I think.

[Gazelda]

OP, I get why you spoke to Emma about pushing. I’d have done the same. But this from your original post stands out to me
... and that I know she has been saying other things that aren't nice at school to DD. I said if it continues, I will have a chat to her mother about it. I know her mother a little bit.
It is what makes me believe you overstepped the mark. It comes across as quite threatening.

I can’t understand why you’d leave it to Parents Evening to raise this with the teacher? Surely this demonstrates to your DD that she speaks to teacher about difficulties as a last resort?

And your latest post, where you say that the pattern of behaviour is the ‘norm’, is the perfect example of why you must speak to the teacher ASAP. Give her/him chance to address it during the school day while you can’t be there to support and protect your DD.

[Onewhole1]

Not sure whether to start a new thread but on

"I would try to help my daughter negotiate these types of friendship issues."

Does anyone here know of strategies on how to support your infant school daughter through a 'threesome' 'friendship' with all the jealous, picking and excluding?

[TheHungryDonkey]

I got fed up with a child upsetting mine every fucking day. Calling her fat and stupid and dumb. Hitting her with sticks and pushing her hard. I saw all of it first hand. My child is very sensitive and I’ve been working on making her more resilient. But she shouldn’t have to deal with that shit every day. I told the teacher who didn’t believe that would happen in that school. She didn’t take it any further. Which is why the next time it happened I did raise it with the parent when she got off her phone. She didn’t like it and started shouting in front of everyone that It was racism. It absolutely wasn’t. I just wanted her child to stop upsetting and hurting mine. So everything’s gone to shit.

The moral of that story is always take it to the school. Never the child or parents. And if they don’t believe you go to the head.

[famousfour]

Tricky isn't it.

I would certainly address the behaviour I can see ('we don't push' - or similar).

I would definite not have started with the stuff I didn't see, the 'I know you do x, y and z' stuff.

I would have a work with the teacher that day and explain what you we hearing so she can keep and eye on things. I might also talk to the other mother - depending.

I would try to help my daughter negotiate these types of friendship issues.

[Papafran]

Biting, hitting, snatching and kicking are also upsetting for the recipient, but again when done by young toddlers we don't label them nasty bullies, we simply expect the responsible adult to deal with it in a suitable manner

That's different. That is usually the toddler being indiscriminate and pushing whoever has the toy he wants etc. The toddler does not do it deliberately. This is a girl who is 4 (so twice the age of a toddler) and is deliberately being mean and excluding another child- ie 'we don't want to play with you' and 'everyone else can do this, but you can't'. It's pretty nasty actually and I know that she is a young child and I am not saying she is beyond redemption but she definitely knows what she is doing and she needs to be pulled up by her own parents, the teachers and anyone who witnesses her doing this. Hopefully she will stop. However, to just say 'she's 4' is not good enough- this is still bullying. If she is not told now and there are consequences, she will continue to be a bully.

[YellowFlower201]

You did the right thing! Good grief people on here are precious. Emma’s being a bully OP saw if, of course she will tell her not to behave like that!!
I think you should speak to the teacher as this is bullying and will not improve unless Emma gets told that she needs to back off.

[Aeroflotgirl]

Picked doh

[Aeroflotgirl]

Still lurked, I would have told the girl off, and due to what dd had told op about being wicked on, I would tell the teachers and hope it's nipped in the bud.

[Lurkedforever1]

aero but that means nothing in a general sense. Dd shoved and yanked a girl in front of teachers, her reason being that if the other girl gave her sly twisting pinches or sly hair pulls then dd would return it two fold. But unlike the other girl dd didn't hide her behaviour or attempt to manipulate people into believing she was a poor victim.

And in this scenario, it isn't relevant either, if anything a good thing because anything she does should be easily witnessed, and if she isn't hiding it then it indicates she is just insecure/ immature and doesn't see anything wrong with her behaviour, rather than deliberate nastiness.

[Nanny0gg]

I've worked in schools for years though, and I know these things often don't get properly dealt with. Teachers don't want the hassle and often view the kid who's 'whining' as someone just telling tales unfortunately.

I'd be very surprised if that was the case in Reception.

Yes, if she is horrible directly in front of you just tell her to please not do that and then go and tell the teacher what you saw and ask to make an appointment to speak in more detail.

[Aeroflotgirl]

If Emma was doing that to op. In front of her, I wonder what she is doing on the quiet. Op had every right to tell Emma off when she pushed her dd in front of her, I wou,d. I woukd also see the teacher as well.

[Talkingfrog]

We are having a similar situation with my daughter in yr 2, being told she cannot play with others and saying things that appear to be intended to upset her when eating her lunch etc. I have told her to tell them they are being unkind or not playing nicely and then to go and play with someone else. Raised it at parents evening too so the teacher is aware.

I want her to stand up for herself, but she tends to think what the others say is the truth, and wouldn't want to say something to upset them.

I have spoken (nicely) to the child myself before, but her grandmother witnessed what happened and said nothing, so I did. (Her grandmother heard what I said and still said nothing.)

I know it is playground behaviour and kids will fall out and make up all the time, but unless they are told otherwise (in an appropriate way for the age) that they are being unkind, they will think it is acceptable behaviour.

[soapboxqueen]

The reason you are getting a divide in opinion is because one person's quiet word is another's screaming row. A gentle 'Oh dear, we don't push people' is completely different from a stern 'don't you dare push her! Keep your hands to yourself' or flat out shouting. Many people have no idea how they come across when they are aggitated and few of us can keep our cool when confronted with their own child being hurt. Put these two elements together and you get the result of people being over the top. This can often lead to much bigger issues (one which springs to mind involved a 7 year feud in school and out, 2 local football teams, a fist fight between two dads, accusations of financial fraud and repeated calls of racism from both sides due to a war that happened in Europe about 200 years ago. All started with a very minor incident between the children in nursery)

You have to bear in mind that these children are 4 and 5. They don't really know what the hell they are doing. They need help and guidance but that can only happen when issues are brought to the attention of the school. They are not evil in carnate or have crap parents because they weren't born with adult social skills. All children need help with this. Exclusion is a form of bullying so you need to discuss that with the school so that they can come up with a solution.

[Collienova]

I'm quite shocked at some of the responses here tbh. I'm fairly new to playground politics as well (DD in YR1) now. Firstly, OP spoke to the child in front of others even if they may not have heard the full conversation due to the hustle and bustle at the school gate. She was calm, but firm and more importantly, she OBSERVED the exact behaviour her DD has been telling her about. I agree that she should definitely mention it to the teacher asap to allow them to keep an eye on the interactions and use their experience to help. However, bollocks to not being able to tell someone else child that they're being out of order if their parent isn't able to deal with it there. I would have no problem with another parent in school doing that if my DD acted like that. Maybe I'm naive and there's a shit storm brewing, but I bloody well think the OP did the right thing. These things need to be addressed right there and then (and followed up to be fair)

[DontMakeMeShushYou]

If this is happening as regularly as it sounds, then you certainly need to raise it with the teacher.

YANBU to pull up 'Emma' on her behaviour, but I think YABU to take her to one side to speak to her. That could easily be misconstrued. Next time say what you have to say out loud in front of every child involved so that every child knows you have your DD's back.

[Mittens1969]

If one of my DDs was mean to another child in the class, I would be mortified and actually I would be okay with that child’s mum telling her off for it. But I would want her to tell me as well so that I could correct her behaviour.

You should definitely speak to the teacher about it.

[PicnicPie]

Similar thing happened to my 4yo this week with 2 other girls. I was so upset for her, but I held it together and told her: don't worry DD there's so many other lovely girls in your class to play with. You don't need them. You can even have fun by yourself, can't you? And she seemed pretty content with that. I want her to have the confidence to know she doesn't need to play with them and there is an alternative.

[WorzelsCornyBrows]

First morning back, ask the teacher for some time after school. Tell her it's very important. Then tell her everything you have told us. Tell her that you don't believe your daughter is the assertive type to stand up to this behaviour, backed up by what you have seen yourself and ask her to take this seriously. If the teacher is even half decent they will put in action a plan to address this so your DD can have a happy school experience.

[bangingmyheadoffabrickwall]

In YR friendships are beginning to form. Some children are quite needy and insecure, especially when they begin full time schooling and this manifests itself in unwanted behaviour.

Sounds like Emma might be latching onto Jane due to these anxieties she may have.

I have once witnessed a few YR boys being rough and unkind towards one of their peers (friends they normally play with). What Boy A did to Boy B was physical and hurtful - physically and emotionally. NOT intervening would have left Boy B in a vulnerable position and also put distrust in adults - 'they're in trouble and an adult walked away and didn't help' scenario. A quick, direct statement to 'be kind' in a quiet but stern voice is what I delivered.

But seeing as Emma is technically in the care of the school as she attends breakfast club, I would have directed my concerns towards the class teacher and be direct, without being rude, in what I wanted to say. It could be that school is unaware of the issues.

[brasty]

It would be good I think to encourage your DD to play with other children as well.