selection at 11+

[TheNext]

On Wednesday there will be about 1400 kids in my county who will be finding out that they have not passed the 11+. Another 300 or so will get a letter telling them that they have qualified, but with a low score, and these won’t end up going to grammar school. Another 900 will have “passed”, and the top-scoring 600 or so will have some certainty about which school they’ll be headed for, with 300 or so in the twilight zone, not knowing for sure until allocation day on 1st March.

For the 1400, I feel so sad. However sensible the parents are, about not making it a big thing, there are some who turn it into a high-stakes issue for their children, and this has something of a contagious effect in the playground. For the children, who for whatever reason didn’t have a champion morning a few weeks ago when they all did their test, they’ll carry that result with them from Wednesday all through their secondary education and perhaps beyond.

Hopefully most of them won’t care too much, but from the way I have heard local parents discuss it, with kids in earshot, I know that some of them will see it as a big deal, as indeed it is for those who will go to worse schools as a consequence.

AIBU to consider it wrong to impose this system on our children, relying on a single test which in many areas can’t be re-taken, and giving a large number of children in grammar areas the message at age 10 or 11 that they’re not good enough for academic education.

[Creambun2]

Being a hardcore tory and supporting the "choice" of grammar schools goes hand in hand. Until ones child fails the 11+ then see the support for good schools for all.

[SloeSloeQuickQuickGin]

Ta1kinPeece I hate to be rude, but you obviously haven’t got a scooby what you're talking about. My sons grammar school for example offered 17 different languages, as opposed to the bog standard French only at my other sons sec modern.

The grammar school offered a full range of DT subjects including electronics, which is quite a rare subject for a school to offer, where as my sec mod son only had poor food tech in DT - they couldn’t retain a res mats, product design or engineering teacher.

PE offered: Football and rugby, with a bit of cross country and tennis thrown in for good measure. The Grammar school offered the delights of fencing, yachting, go-karting and golf.

And virtually no extra curricular groups offered at the sec mod other than drama. No school trips, nothing ever anywhere. Where as with the grammar school my son few all over the world, long haul, Asia, Africa.

Don't say its a 'restrictive' curriculum. It isn't. It was far more enriching than anything my other two children experienced and each was in a different secondary school. In case we have a time lag - my children are 22, 21, and 17 so recently through the system.

[SloeSloeQuickQuickGin]

Creambun2 I'm a hard core (whatever that silly sound bite means) - two of mine didnt make the grammar grade, one did. I'm still an advocate of the Grammar system.

[Creambun2]

Oh bully for you that your sons school had trips all over the world. Fits in with grammar schools basically benefiting the middle classes who can afford to tutor and hot house their kids through the 11+

[Ta1kinPeece]

sloesloe
How nice for you
Were those 17 languages linked to where the kids came from ?
Just that a lot of the schools round here offer Polish, Romanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Portugese and Spanish at GCSE

If your other kids went to a secondary modern I hope you never told them how inadequate you considered their school

[Trillis]

I don't like huge monolithic sites and mammoth schools. I'd like all schools to be good but have strengths to cater for the different talents dc have for instance, rather than paying private for stage type school it would be great to have state school with emphasis on the arts, another with hands on stuff.. Art, sciences....

In theory that's what we have in my town and it does actually have a good mix of schools on paper. We have:

• 2 grammar schools (boys/girls)
  
• a school with performing arts specialism
  
• a school with maths/science specialism
  
• a school with sports specialism (which is also CofE)
  
• a school with foreign languages specialism and a grammar stream
  
• from last year, a new "free school" that aims to focus on STEM subjects plus music.
  

In practice, it doesn't quite work. The town is divided into 3 catchment areas (the grammars and the CofE have the whole town as catchments). You can be pretty sure of getting into your catchment school, but two of the three catchment schools are in special measures and the other is ofsted outstanding. There is also a shortage of places so if your catchment school is one you don't want, it can be very difficult to get into one of the others.

My daughter really doesn't want our catchment school so has sat the 11+ for the grammars, done a specialist language test for the language school and had a performing arts audition for the performing arts school. We are still waiting for the results for 2 of these and can only decide where to apply after seeing how she did.

If all the schools were of a decent standard then our town's system would work really well. But when the schools are so varied in quality it is inevitably a struggle to get into the better schools so probably no different to anywhere else.

[steppemum]

creambun - my kids received FSM.

Their grammar school does a French exchange, and I do not know a single comp in our area that does that.

and guess what, most if ds was paid for by school as a FSM student.

They offer 3 sciences to all, and possibility of 2 languages, with choice of which ones.
None of the comps here offer either of those things.

So, it isn't all about the middle class stuff. But it is about opportunities.

[mountford100]

segregated schools are NOT the answer

Tell that to a bright conscientious pupil who attends Harrop Fold school !

They would dream of being separated from the vast numbers of pupils in their school who are in many cases are just marking time !

[CotswoldStrife]

We have the (voluntary) 11+ here, Wednesday is results day for us too.

The grammar schools here are fabulous, I can absolutely see why parents would push to go to them. But some of the comprehensives are pretty impressive too, we've been round a lot of schools.

My own child's favourite school is a grammar but I'm not sure they'll pass the test so we've looked at all types and have some really good schools lined up for our admissions application due this month. I don't see the comprehensives as less academic, the results are not as good because they have the mixed ability but that doesn't mean less academic to me. All the schools we've been to see do foreign trips too.

I don't see failing one test as a lifelong marker on a child's academic ability either, or something that will dog them through the rest of their years.

[Ktown]

stream the comps better. that is what people what and then there is fluidity for each child to move up or down. or remain in the middle. i now live in bucks and although there is pressure many seem to have an idea quite early on of how they will do, and they prep accordingly.

a family member failed their 11+. they are a Prof of physics now and doing very well.

i will prep my kid and then ensure they are mentally prepared too - not placing all their attention on passing. parental pressure is normal, but writing people off at 11 is ridiculous.

streaming hopefully removes the most disruptive behaviour and allows everyone to flourish at their level. it is the children in the middle who suffer most from a mixed education system. and it is the average children who would do better at private schools where the disruption is a little less pronounced.

[BarbarianMum]

Because only bright children are conscientious and concerned about their future right Mumford ?

[steppemum]

Ktown - I think I would have agreed with you until very recently, but there is a very interesting thread running on mn at the moment about NOT streaming in comps. The reason is that it has been found to be detrimental to most kids, and they apprently do better in classes of mixed ability.

Guess which group do NOT do better? The top 10%. They do better when in a streamed system.

I have no idea how you work out the system. I guess the examples given didn't find out if you remove the top 10%, does the next 10& suffer?

As the parent of one of the 10% it is frustrating to constantly be called to defend trying to get my kids a decent education. The difference in my dcs from year 6 to year 7 was huge. I remember ds frustration at primary.

I do understand that the current system is crap for the rest (the not 10%, or in some counties the not 30%) but all the discussion is always aroudn the top bit.

Why do we not see the same heated discussions over what comprehensives should look like in order to serve all 100% of the population?

Or does everyone seriously think they they work as they are?
In which case, what do we do in areas (like mine) where they DON'T work? Where there are massive behaviour issues, rudeness is rife and it is fine for the boys to catcall the girls all day long.

[mountford100]

I am always amazed by the reaction grammar schools get on here. This especially due to the fact that a huge number of the posters on Mumsnet are only able to post expertly, due to their own selective educations be that Private or State !

Another thing there are only 164 grammar schools in England and another 40 or so in Northern Ireland ,so virtually every parent in England has the choice of Comprehensive Education .

The only parts of England where a comprehensive school choice is not realistically available is in Lincolnshire and the far east of Kent or coastal areas !

Even in totally selective areas such as Tunbridge Wells Aylesbury and Altrincham there are supposedly 'Secondary Modern' schools that knock the spots of most truly comprehensive schools !

Leave grammar schools alone and move to a comprehensive area if that is your bag,there must be '3000' of them plenty of areas to choose from then.

[pendeen123]

If you think selection is not a good idea then you think practically all the other major countries in Europe - Germany,France,Switzerland,Italy,Spain et al - have got it wrong. Just saying.

[Banderwassnatched]

Grammar schools don't work, for the kids in them or the kids outside them. Of course comps should provide DT and Triple Science, and if they don't- then we need to improve that for the sake of all kids.

[BertrandRussell]

Selection at 11 is unfair and socially and psychologically damaging. HTH.

[BarbarianMum]

The 11+ isn't actually selection at age 11. It's selection at age 10 - so even worse.

[BertrandRussell]

True.

[poisonedbypen]

mountford100, no comprehensive education in Buckinghamshire

[steppemum]

Grammar schools don't work, for the kids in them

on the contrary, 2 of my dcs are extremeely happy and doing very well at grammar school, as are their classmates.
Not sure where you get the idea that don't work for the kids in them

for the rest I can understand

[Ta1kinPeece]

steppe
Not sure where you get the idea that don't work for the kids in them
It was in the widely published research that looked at the impact of grammar schools across the board.

Kids in them do better by around 1/3 of a GCSE grade
Kids outside them do worse by around 2/3 of a GCSE grade

get rid of them, save on stress and save on tutoring for an overall rise in standards

[Banderwassnatched]

Step- from the data. Clever kids don't do any better than they would have at a comp. I'm glad your kids are happy. My kids enjoy their comp. So following your logic, if my kids thrive at a comp, comps must be best, no?

[Banderwassnatched]

Think of it this way. Say I could marketise the idea that buying kids goldfish improved their grades. So all these parents buy these fish. You ain't no one if your kid ain't got a fish. The kids love the fish. They testify that the fish helps them concentrate, the fish makes them fitter, happier etc- not because it does, but because parents believe it will, and kids are exquistely sensitive to our expectations. Kids become masters of fish husbandry. The price of goldfish skyrockets. But goldfish don't actually improve grades. There is no magical property to owning a goldfish that makes you achieve more.

Grammar schools are like those goldfish.

[mountford100]

Poison. Technical there is no Comprehensive education in Bucks. However, check out the designated 'Modern' schools and you will see they achieve better than many comps.

Which would you prefer for your child to be educated in Harrop Fold or the Beaconsfield school.

I believe 'Harrop Fold' is a 'Secondary Modern' despite being located in an area that has been fully comprehensive since Harold Wilson was in power!

This is to suggest that Harrop Fold offers the majority of its pupils the sort education routinely given to Modern children in the 60s and 70s !

I also think under extremely challenging circumstances Harrop Fold is doing very well.

However, when posters try to state that Bucks offers no comprehensive educational options, look at the results of the Upper schools and compare with designated comps in other areas.

The same can be said of Trafford's non grammar schools, they are equally if not better than surrounding areas comprehensive schools.

[Ta1kinPeece]

If you hate the school that much, vote with your feet.

My kids did not attend my local comp because its badly run.
500 other kids made the same choice
(local school has over 400 spaces)

Comp does not mean "put up with bad"
Comp means - no entry criteria other than age and distance.