To think too much emphasis is put on university?

[Fluffy24]

Genuinely curious.

I'm a university graduate but many of my friends have trades and are just as successful in life/earn similar amounts. Equally I know graduates who are out of work and find, for instance, that their media or history degree isn't helping them to find a job.

I'm surprised at Jeremy Corbyn wanting to fund tuition fees (unless he thinks he needs the student vote). It costs alot of money and there are plenty of graduates already struggling to find jobs whilst we have shortages of some skilled trades, such as in engineering, construction etc where a greater emphasis on apprenticeships would be appropriate surely?

Aren't we setting up an expectation that everyone should want to get a degree, and perpetuating the sense that a vocational qualification is of less value.

If we want to ensure we can capitalise on talent regardless of wealth then some courses could be funded (engineering, teaching, medicine etc) where we identify a skills shortfall in a particular industry or sector?

I would prefer my son to undertake an apprenticeship and learn a useful trade than do a 'generic' university degree just because it's expected of him.

Of greater benefit to our whole society would surely be to spend the money on educating children instead.

[RainbowsAndUnicorn]

Free tuition would be very wrong and a huge waste of money in most cases. How many don't already repay their loans? Even more would go with no intention of using the qualification.

I can see the point of free places in shortage areas, providing the person repays by working in that area i.e. Nurse for so many years etc. All others should be paid for, none of the ridiculous system where people can borrow thousands and never repay any.

[NewAndExcitingUserName]

Yes, and I've changed my username just for this.

My job depends on a high percentage of students going not only to university, but RG Uni and a relatively high percentage of them going Oxbridge or IL university.

Of course, if you can get to these universities then you are extremely intelligent or at least, know how to get there. Something I've learnt is that the right resources (including human) can 'educate the dumb out of you'.

However, too many people put too much emphasis on non-vocational (is there an antonym for vocational? Academic perhaps?) degrees.

In my sector, I think it's a shame that every single teacher needs to have a degree (well, 99.9%). B.eD are looked down on compared to under-grad and post-grad whereas so many great teachers could be simply experience + PGCE (or CE, I guess).

Too much emphasis is put on university. I blame Blair and his ridiculous targets which were nothing more than looking to appease the aspirational classes.

[MarciaBlaine]

Back when I left school, about half my Grammar School cohort went to University/Poly. The other half went directly into Management training schemes post A level. Banks and Retail were the big ones for this, but also accountancy, hospitality industry, nursing etc. Degrees were not needed for these roles - you learnt on the job. IT was still not a big thing then of course, but I really do think we need to move back to this model.

[MarciaBlaine]

Other countries have a better focus on vocational education for those who are more practical and less academic too.

[Addley]

Free tuition would be very wrong and a huge waste of money in most cases.

Totally. 5 GCSEs at A* to C are all anybody really needs for most jobs. If some people want to indulge themselves by doing French A level when they never plan to work in France, that's their own lookout - they should pay for their A levels if it's that important to them. If they don't want to pay to do A levels, they can get an employer to pay for them to be trained in something at level 3; that way people are trained to get the qualifications that are actually needed in industry.

[Oliversmumsarmy]

I think schools should look at making career advice a set lesson in the school week. So that before children get to A levels they have some idea of the career or direction they want to go in

Dp wanted ds to be a solicitor or accountant or at least get a degree then decide. Dp although he lives in the same house as us is not good at looking with honest eyes at his son and taking on board ds is not A level material let alone university. To his horror ds has decided plumbing is his career of choice. This means that he wont waste the next 5 years getting a degree he will spend the time qualifying as a plumber and doing an apprenticeship as well as doing short courses in plastering, tiling and painting and decorating etc so he can do most things.
We have spent at least 2 years at home looking from time to time at different career options from footballer to actor to personal trainer to archaeology. All I knew was we had to discount any career that involved dressing in stuff with buttons.

[BarbarianMum]

5 GCSEs at grades A-C are all anybody needs for most jobs

If you live in 1900 perhaps. I am perfectly comfortable that all the pharmacists, doctors, teachers, dentists, architects, pilots, forensic scientists, civil engineers, car designers, lawyers, aeronautical engineers, research scientists, material scientists, etc etc in my life are graduates.

[Addley]

Oops, did I forget the sarcasm alert siren? 😒

[Addley]

(you might want to read my posts on page 1)

[likeababyelephant]

Something needs to be done in a child's early years if they're not capable of attaining a degree.

Self esteem, gender, ethnicity, social background etc can all have an effect on someone's levels of education.

[NonStopDisco]

A colleague of mine today told me that people paying £9000 a year for university would put people off doing "softer" subjects (anything other than STEM apparently). I disagree with this, I reckon it encourages universities to market more profitable degrees, which may be less useful (such as off-shoots of traditional academic degrees).

I believe that degrees should be kept for academics, where specialising as you move up through academia is encouraged, and this should be state funded (research and development would also be used in the private sector, especially in commercial labs, pharmaceuticals etc), but much of the time study is required to research less "sexy" or glamorous concepts.

I think some vocational degrees could be reclassified, but still be considered the same level as degrees, no more or less prestigious, and should also be funded according to need- there are loads of industries currently facing skills shortages, and no real cohesive way of resolving them, except for individual companies doing apprenticeship programs- no real standardisation across the country. This would also take away the requirement for x amount of a-levels or GCSEs to enter a higher educational setting- there may be some other evidence or competent person to assess your suitability.

[likeababyelephant]

Just looked up Julie Birchill. So sad about her son.

I'm a university student and it's exam time. A student has already taken their life. I wonder how common it is at this time of year

[Jellymuffin]

Not having a degree and working your way up is all very well until you hit a glass ceiling either at your current job or when applying for a more senior position. At a certain pay grade in most professions not having a degree won't even get you through the initial paper sift.

[StickThatInYourPipe]

They do but if general educational attainment levels were better maybe it would be less critical, e.g. is it currently being used now to identify those with a decent education with an assumption that if you don't have a degree you can't be very clever. ?

Is that the assumption? Not in my experience. I don't have a degree and earn the same, if not more than most from my year group that went to university.

I also believe experience in the field you want to work in is now respected equally to completing a degree, after a certain level it doesn't seem to matter either way.

[Bluntness100]

I agree with you somewhat. I think kids should do what they find interesting but that which also has a career path. If they enjoy it and finding it interesting they will more likely succeed.

Too many kids think university is the easy or obvious answer. In my daughters course, 200 of the 400 kids who started with her in her first year dropped out at the end of it or were kicked out, as you need to pass to be invited back to do the next year. That's 200 kids right there, on one course, at one uni, who made a very expensive bad decision. Kids at a Russel group uni who needed straight As just even to be there in the first place. And bam, one year later it's all over.

That's a huge amount of lack of understanding of what university entails. These days a half way decent electrician or plumber can make way more than some mediocre lawyer, a good history teacher or a decent journalist.

Going to university isn't the only option and often isn't the right one.

[FreeNiki]

Not having a degree and working your way up is all very well until you hit a glass ceiling either at your current job or when applying for a more senior position. At a certain pay grade in most professions not having a degree won't even get you through the initial paper sift.

An old colleague of mine started as a legal cashier at 17 years old on an 11k salary.

11 years later he is 28, his employer paid for accountancy courses, he is on £35k, has a car and a mortgage as he has never had any university debt to repay and has always been able to save.

I as a solicitor earned just over £40k and had debt everywhere. Why the fuck did i bother.

He is young enough to do a degree part time should he desire and then has all that accountancy and cashiering experience behind him.

[Seryph]

How about giving us more to support ourselves while we are at university?
Before I took myself to university as an adult I stopped getting my ESA because the government felt my partners £6000 student maintenance loan was enough to pay our rent, bills, feed us, travel and everything he actually needed for studying.

I am highly academic, always have been, and it has always been my dream to attend university, and work for one. Sadly I will never be able to afford my PhD.

[Toomanycats99]

To me the purpose of a degree was always to make you stand out from other people. When the rates of people doing them are so high then that is no longer enough. I still agree with it where it is relevant to the job but I struggle to see the benefit when you could come out and only get a job that you could have got 3 years earlier. I never went (and looking back can see that my desire to go was linked to the perceived social life not my future employability) I went back to college part time at 24 ish and was far more focused on my goals at that age.

[engineersthumb]

I didn't attend university, nor did any of my family. Indeed "office work" was for "women and shiney trousers". Somehow I have become a reasonably well paid senior engineer for some of the largest international firms in my field. Most of my colleagues have Msc or PhDs. If anything this makes me regret allowing myself being turned away from a university education as I was evidently capable. I don't want anyone else to feel that regret. Therfore a university education should be available for all. However, there should be other routes available also and where possible opportunities for mobility between paths. The concept that university should be exclusively for those that could afford it is an indictment of social policy. The route I followed into to my profession is probably the result of significant luck, I doubt it would be possible today.

[FreeNiki]

Seryph cant you get funding and a stipend for PhD?

[RudeDog]

DH is from a very working class background. Most of the people in his family didn't even finish school.
Bizarrely he was very academic and did a PhD (he can't do the job he does now without one).
I think the fear of massive debts would have made it difficult for him to go at all. God knows what else he would have done?

[innitprawn]

Personally I didn't just leave University with a degree but with friends, alumni, a network. This network has helped me up the career ladder.

Even though I finished with a 2(II) albeit various reasons behind this - I think having that education - the network - the alumni. The status of my degree - it's a redbrick law degree. My post- graduate where I met my DH!!

So uni gave me soooo much more than an education! Gave me a massive insight into a different way of living.

I was the first person in my family to go to uni. We are an immigrant family. My parents worked in factories and shop floors.

As a result I think of my background I didn't question any thing just listened and learned.

My only mistake. I was 1% off a 2(I) and I should have appealed: I wasn't aware of this - so that's my only regret. But in saying that - there are lots of decisions we make and I'm not unhappy with my life.

Getting a 2(ii) drove me to prove myself even more

[engineersthumb]

I belive that the most effective method of improving social mobility in the UK would be a former of compulsory national service. Not necessarily limited to the armed forces, potentially including social care and other services focused on benefiting wider society. It should most certainly involve living away from home and ideally communally. This would really allow young people to experience life outside of their background. Following such an experience most would have a much better idea regarding higher education and career paths. I think being thrown in the mix together for 2 years without any pressure on making life changing decisions, or thoughts of falling behind their peers would reduce the reported levels of mental health issues seen in youngsters today. Had I not joined the forces and in doing so widened my horizons, I would likely still be living in the same town I was born in and struggling to find employment.

[carefreeeee]

Uni should be free but places should be limited according to the number of graduates needed and pointless courses should not exist.

There needs to be much more value given to other types of training and this should start early on in school, currently there is huge emphasis on academic ability right through from age 5 with any talents in other areas being seen as decidedly second best. This needs to change!

The aim should be for everyone to be trained in something and then we wouldn't have so many unskilled workers competing for minimum wage jobs with immigrants, whilst we have to get other immigrants to fills the gaps caused by skills shortages in many sectors.

[carefreeeee]

And all this emphasis on degrees is meaning the right people aren't picked for the job. Previously a lab technician would have only needed a levels and it was a practical job. Now there are so many people with PhDs around, most technicians have either that or at least a Masters. They may be clever but there's no one with any common sense around - whereas before you had practical types who could fix things!