Pub not serving water

[Shaddrack]

Is it the norm for pubs to refuse customers water if they think they've drunk too much alcohol?
Went out last night, my friend had over done it and asked for a glass of water before we left to walk home but was refused due to "the science"
I've googled but I can't find this science, all I can find is suggestions you refuse any more alcohol and offer water!
I think it was such a shitty thing to do, not just unreasonable but actually fairly irresponsible. But maybe i'm just not privy to the right "science"?

[NarkyMcDinkyChops]

At what stage does one become a customer? Simply being on the premises or do you need to have purchased something?

You aren't a customer unless you have purchased something, that is the very definition of the word!

[TheMythOfFingerprints]

I would serve free water to;

Somebody with a group of people drinking paid for drinks.

Somebody that had purchased at least one drink.

Somebody who came in and looked unwell or similar.

I wouldn't serve free water more than once to somebody on their own who expected to be able to stay for the duration of a football match for example.
This would come under pubs having the right to refuse service to anyone.

In fact, I told a group of lads the other week that came in and started playing pool that that would be their only game if nobody was buying a drink.
We aren't a youth club, or your mates house.

[JassyRadlett]

Out of interest as this is no longer my area and is clearly yours

Nope - two second Google before I made pronouncements about fact on the internet.

This is the guidance on mandatory conditions for premises licenses or club premises certificates. It's plain English and quite accessible. The guidance also deals with the definition of 'customer'.

[SansComic]

Out of interest as this is no longer my area and is clearly yours, does this apply to Off Licences (e.g. Threshers) and not bars / pubs / clubs which may have on and off licences.

At what stage does one become a customer? Simply being on the premises or do you need to have purchased something? Does the purchase have to be alcoholic or can I demand it with my bag of dry roasted nuts?

[SansComic]

Pesky old new licensing conditions.

[insancerre]

Jassy

[JassyRadlett]

'Random bits of law' = 'the very clear conditions for being permitted to serve alcohol'.

Pesky old licensing conditions.

[SansComic]

JassyRadlett

I said "ex". I haven't worked in the industry for over a decade.

cdtaylornats
The licensing conditions say that water must be available it says nothing about a glass or serving it. Free potable water is probably available in the toilets from the taps.

I would love this to be correct.

I think we all know what kind of customers demand free things and start quoting random bits of law.

[Shaddrack]

does not friend follow the hard drink, soft drink, hard drink, soft drink protocol for avoiding getting shit arsed?

Not on this occasion no! I think she probably would have been happy to pay for a bottle of water tbh he was just so against her having water it seemed odd!

She has spoken to the landlord, it's a new landlord but the same staff. He said she should have been given water, another member of bar staff said she would have provided a glass of water of she'd asked her so it was just this barman being a twat
Hope he gets told!

[JassyRadlett]

Sorry, meant to quote from this bit of Sans's post...

Some licences require it but most don't

Which is incorrect.

[JassyRadlett]

As an ex area-manager for a large chain of bars, we used to advise against it. You'll get eithe rpeople taking up space with a glass of tap water or people drinking too much, having a glass of water and then vomiting everywhere.

Flat out wrong.

From the Home Office guidance on the mandatory licensing conditions (which helpfully sorts out 'reasonably available' for you too - no QC required ):

Section 2: Potable water

The 2014 Order provides that the responsible person must ensure that free potable water is provided on request for customers where it is reasonably available.

Many premises already offer free tap water. This condition means that responsible persons at all premises must ensure customers are provided with potable (drinking) water for free if they ask for it. It does not need to come from a tap. This helps people to space out their drinks and not become intoxicated quickly, which reduces the risk of crime and disorder occurring.

What is meant by “reasonably available” is a question of fact; for example, it may not be reasonable to expect free water to be available in premises for which the water supply had temporarily been lost because of a broken mains supply and where no alternative (for example, bottled water) is available.

In this section, the term ‘customer’ has its plain English definition.

So basically - if you serve alcohol, you have to have drinking water available for free in normal conditions. Since 2014, any licensed premises refusing is in breach of the law, no matter what their area manager advises...

[hmcAsWas]

Should have offered water and sounds like he was being a twunt with his 'science' comment, but as an aside does not friend follow the hard drink, soft drink, hard drink, soft drink protocol for avoiding getting shit arsed?

[doubleshotespresso]

Tap water should be within the licensing conditions as available to all, always.

The Designated Premises Supervisor and Personal License holders should all be aware of this as it forms part of their "duty of care to their patrons".

Apologies if I have doubled with may body here, I have sped-read this thread and am on monster painkillers.

[yaela123]

There could be 20 reasons.

1. More money
   2)Errm...

[Gabilan]

The only "science" I can think of that's remotely linked is Leah Betts's case and hyperhydration. Doesn't sound as if that's what was bothering the barman though.

[FurryLittleTwerp]

Alcohol tends to lower the blood sugar, so water is not necessarily the best liquid for rehydrating with.

Lots & lots of water deranges the salts in the blood which is also a bad thing.

I think this might be "the science"

[JustSpeakSense]

I'd report this to the landlord, his dickish barman is putting his liquor license in jeopardy.

[Finola1step]

I have just completed the Personal Licence Training. It was made very clear that on all licensed premises, free potable tap water must be made available, if requested.

I suspect this is a barman making a decision when he actually doesn't know licensing laws.

If you're interested, go on your local council website. Search for premises licences and License Policy. If you do a search for the premises itself, you should get access to license details, including who is the Designated Premises Supervisor (new term for Licensee). Unless of course its a very old license.

[cdtaylornats]

The licensing conditions say that water must be available it says nothing about a glass or serving it. Free potable water is probably available in the toilets from the taps.

[SansComic]

And the absinthe probably just hadn't kicked in at first and the consumption of water was just a coincidence.

Perhaps. Who knows? It was the early 80s and we were on acid.

[barinatxe]

The guidelines are quite interesting in that they imply that even if there were no mains water available, assuming there was some kind of drinkable water on the premises (even Perrier) then they would be legally obliged to give you it for free.

The 2014 Order provides that the responsible person must ensure that free potable water is provided on request for customers where it is reasonably available... This condition means that responsible persons at all premises must ensure customers are provided with potable (drinking) water for free if they ask for it. It does not need to come from a tap... What is meant by “reasonably available” is a question of fact; for example, it may not be reasonable to expect free water to be available in premises for which the water supply had temporarily been lost because of a broken mains supply and where no alternative (for example, bottled water) is available.

I can't imagine there are many pubs that don't have expensive bottled water available to paying customers, even in the unlikely event that the mains supply is interrupted.

Report them.

[RebeccaCloud9]

That is absolutely ridiculous - not serving WATER because of vomiting but quite happy to serve ALCOHOL??!!

And the absinthe probably just hadn't kicked in at first and the consumption of water was just a coincidence.

[SansComic]

Shaddrack

I have no idea. The barman seems like they were being a bit of a dick and similar to those who love to quote health and safety or safeguarding with no real understanding of what it means.

In my experience (not science), carbonated drinks are drunk slower so may mean less likely to vomit. They also tend to be colder than tap water.

When I was a bar manager, I had a rule of thumb, 'drunk enough to 'need' water, drunk enough to get the fuck out of my bar'.

lules

The key there is 'reasonably available'. It may have changed but we used to not have any form of QC on our tap water. By doing this, our risk assessments always said that the risks outweighed the benefits of offering free water, especially when we could offer bottled water with guaranteed quality.