AIBU to ask you to sign this to help the families of stillborn babies.

[RestlessTraveller]

My friend's daughter was stillborn at 23 weeks old. Sarah was in labour for 7 hours before giving birth to Rowan, who had died in the womb from a heart condition. Because Rowan was born before 24 weeks it was classed as a miscarriage and a birth or death certificate could not be issued. Please consider signing this petition to change this for Sarah and Nick, and every other family facing the same experience.

www.change.org/p/department-of-health-uk-allow-registered-birth-certificates-for-children-born-from-20-weeks?recruiter=45838847&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-no_msg

[ClusterFuckTadpole]

My DS2 was born at 21 weeks. The hospital gave us a certificate, but this wasn't a formal birth certificate. I agree with this. Legally you would move to shaky grounds for late term abortion, and remember a late term abortion is usually for medical reasons.

[Splodgeinc]

I don't know what the right answer is here. I can't see the law operating on a "asked for" basis. So if the limit was 20 weeks then would birth certificates have to be issued in the case of abortions? It would be horrific if women who had abortions were forced to register the birth. Also if the limit was changed to 20 weeks then surely you would have those poor women who loose a baby at 19 weeks also wanting birth certificates, then 17 weeks and so on, where would you stop? The current limit matches the limit of viability which make some logical sense, surely any other line would be arbitrary? However I can see the current rules are heartbreaking for some, I just feel a change may be heartbreaking for others. Sorry

[WaryMary]

My baby was born at 23+6 weeks and died 2 hours after he was born. We have a birth certificate and a death certificate

My understanding of it was if my baby had been born dead he wouldn't of gotten a birth certificate or death certificate as he was never alive outside the womb,

I think it's awful people don't get birth certificates for their still borns but I can also see why they don't. Technically the baby never lived as awful as that sounds x

[MipMipMip]

Bump

[mambono5]

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers

I have no word. I hope you are ok now.

Such an important thing to have a choice.

[WhiskyTangoFoxtrot]

You can register a stillbirth

www.gov.uk/register-stillbirth

but I think that follows the current legal age of viability at 24 weeks (which is, as noted above) linked to the abortion laws.

[RestlessTraveller]

Having read the previous thread, thanks AuntieStella, I can completely understand why some people won't want to sign this. Apart from the legal ramifications of abortion, I understand why for some parents it would cause more upset. But I also completely get Sarah's upset that she has footprints and other memories and will tell her other children about a sibling that legally doesn't exist. It's a difficult one.

[80sMum]

I signed a couple of weeks ago.

Personally, I think that the 24 weeks cut off for abortions is too late. At that stage of the pregnancy, an abortion would surely entail inducing labour? I can't imagine how horribly traumatising that would be for the mother.

[FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers]

mambo They need to have a cause of death on a death certificate, one of my children had to have a post mortem regardless of what I wanted, the other didn't as the cause of death was expected and they knew what it was.

It's a really difficult one to navigate, I have had to register the deaths of 2 of my children, and it was a horrendous and complicated process, but ultimately I think the 24 week point is correct.

It's difficult to take the emotion out of it and look at things just from a legal viewpoint only though when it's your child.

I think hospitals do a certificate of sorts for the parents which is as good a compromise as there can be in the circumstances.

[MrsLouisTomlinson]

Parents can absolutely refuse a post-mortem in the case of a stillbirth or miscarriage. They are offered but not compulsory.

[RestlessTraveller]

for you Oldraver

[Oldraver]

Yes I will sign, I think you should have the option of a birth certificate and the legalities of it need debating.

My Firstborn was before the old limit (28 weeks) and the person who delivered damaged him irreprabley him told me.."we dont consider it a birth at this point, its just a miscarriage". As he did live for a short while we did get a birth and death certificate.

As it was we were asked if we would consent to a post-mortem to see if there were any other factors etc. It wasn't compulsory but we thought somehow it would help. Though all knowledge of the post mortem have since been denied by the health authority

[RestlessTraveller]

Thank you to all that have signed so far.

[ohfourfoxache]

Signed

[mambono5]

*POSSIBLY TRIGGERING, PLEASE DON'T READ IF SUBJECT IS TOO SENSITIVE**

Can you not refuse autopsy for a baby or child? Please tell me they can force a parent to go through that! (not sure who "they" are)

[Birdsgottafly]

""I wonder if it could be done on a choice basis""

No it couldn't, but thinking about it further, there could be a different type of BC, for Stillborn babies.

They were once noted in the Parish records, so previously they would be officially named and documented.

[AuntieStella]

Previous thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/2831784-Petition-Birth-certificates-for-babies-stillborn-after-16-weeks

[Birdsgottafly]

I've signed a petition that calls for a BC, but if a death certificate is issued, then wouldn't that mean that an autopsy has to be done, as is the case in unexplained deaths in Babies?

It certainly needs debating and these petitions will start that.

[mambono5]

For a parent, losing a baby at 18, 20 or 26 weeks makes no difference. It's just as painful, and it's your baby you lost. I also understand the heartache about parent having to make horrendous decisions.

Not easy subject, and so painful. I wish people had a choice, so I have signed of course.

[PrincessNakedAsAJayBird]

Have signed and absolutely agree for Rainy- for those who wish this it should absolutely be available.

[RestlessTraveller]

I am very much pro-choice and have wondered about this myself. Sarah admits there are a lot of legal complications to this. I wonder if it could be done on a choice basis?

[Rainydayspending]

Absolutely those who want this should be able to access / apply.
For those wanting this recognition it should definitely be available.

[PotteringAlong]

Cross posts! Sorry, I hadn't seen the previous thread

[PotteringAlong]

Can I ask a question?

If they issue a birth certificate under 24 weeks then it's classed as a birth and gives a level of recognition to that baby. I can completely see why people might want that. However, are there not implications here for late term abortions? Is that not part of the reason for the 24 week cut off? Would you have to have a birth certificate if you had an abortion after 20 weeks? Again, I can completely see why some people having a TFMR (which the majority will be at that point) might want that. But there will be people who don't.

[SexTrainGlue]

Yes, there was a thread about this before, and the point was repeatedly made that there is an interplay between the abortion law and the age of legal viability. Heartbreaking, I agree, but cannot be wished into non-existence because of that.