To ask Constitutional Law experts their take on the Supreme Court ruling?

[Greta84]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38720320

Does that mean if MPs say no there will be no exit from the EU?

[woman12345]

Interesting article on how power will be repatriated from EU, not to parliament but to the executive.
Was that what the referendum was really about?
www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/01/after-brexit-tories-can-sell-nhs-donald-trump

[caroldecker]

Given the current polls and state of the Labour party, an election today would give the Conservatives a majority of around 100. They will wait until the new boundaries are in place and then make it more.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Nothing. Why would they? A majority seem in favour of the current government.

[reddishdevil]

Cecilede, so what's to stop the government introducing a bill to repeal the Fixed term Parliaments Act 2011, by a simple majority?

[CeciledeVolanges]

Snap elections are a thing of the past. Please keep up.

[caringcarer]

I think about 1/3 of Labour MP's have publicly stated they will either vote against triggering Article 50 or abstain. if 2/3 of Labour MP's support Bill then I think that will be enough to pass Bill through house. Labour are damned if they do support Bill in Remain constituencies and damned if they do not support Bill in Brexit constituencies. UKIP will benefit the most. If a GE was called i'd bet UKIP would grab a lot of Labour seats as many voters would not feel happy with how their own MP voted and then parliament would be much further right wing. Better vote in agreement of Article 50 and keep more balance in parliament however May will call snap election and if she does Labour will be decimated and she will win as far more grass root Tory voters voted for Brexit and even though she was a 'Remainer' she did listen to result of public vote and cannot be accused of ignoring the result of referendum, so she will have made Tory voters happy.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Cordelia you are correct except about the vertical and horizontal directives. Directives can have vertical and horizontal effect. The real issue is that we have a dualist legal system so Parliament could have legislated contrary to any directive at any time. It just would have been illegal under EU and international law. But countries disobey international law all the time - the Government is frankly proud when we disobey the European Court of Human Rights. I do wonder whom they will blame after we leave.

[woman12345]

Voting to trigger a50 is a constitutional breach of the principle of the separation of powers.
And it would have very serious consequences, leaving the EU, might become the least of the effects.

[TheInternetIsForPorn]

Cordelia yes it is advisory but that doesn't mean you ignore the fact a majority of the people who voted made a decision. By disenfranchise I mean that in ignoring a result of a referendum you are in effect tainting the public. 'We'll ask you but do what we want'. But I think you knew that.

A referendum shouldn't have been called if government weren't willing to act on either response.

[cordeliajackson]

majority of the people who voted wanted to leave.
in an advisory referendum with no constitutional status.
You just disenfranchise over half the population and something I think every politician will be aware, and possibly wary, of
The franchise is still in place. MPs represent constituents, they are not delegates
Why should an MP be wary of being a representative?
Apart from the concern that their head might be blown off?.

[TheInternetIsForPorn]

I'm curious at the assumption that because we are voting o it Brexit will now be a 'soft' Brexit. Surely all the government can guarantee at this stage is to negotiate for a particular set of outcomes, they can in no way guarantee it, as until we have initiated article 50 then serious negotiation with the rest of Europe can't get underway.

I would be very very surprised if the vote in parliament ends up going against initiating article 50. I'm not saying it won't, I'm just saying that to do so would be a massive risk.

Yes mumsnet was mostly remain, but the majority of the people who voted wanted to leave. Just because a lot of the people don't like it doesn't mean we shouldn't proceed. You just disenfranchise over half the population and something I think every politician will be aware, and possibly wary, of.

[cordeliajackson]

" that they" should be "if they"

[cordeliajackson]

' but is subjugated to EU directives'
Did constitutional law five million years ago, but aren't there vertical and horizontal directives?
And the elected MEPs vote and decide on legislation, which I thought was democracy?.

[cordeliajackson]

Not a lawyer, but in terms of the parliamentary end of this one, aren't MPs representatives rather than delegates?

Dangerous precedent becomes established that they assume role of delegates, and separation of powers dissipate.

[Itisnoteasybeingdifferent]

I am am ambivalent about this one. Mainly because for as long as we are part of the EU, parliament is not sovereign but is subjugated to EU directives.

Invoking article 50 will take parliament out of EU control. Thus it is necessary and any obstacles are in fact self defeating.

OTOH for the PM to try and by-pass parliament would not bode well for the future.

[OrlandaFuriosa]

Tyto, I sympathise but fear your wishes may be the triumph of hope over experience.

[TytoAlba]

Sybis I agree with what you wrote and would also hope that the White Paper includes provisions that Parliament should note be able to trigger Article 50 until it is satisfied that Mrs. May and her Government have a proper, realistic plan for the Brexit negotiations instead of a "red white and blue Brexit" (which are also the French and USA colours as I'm sure we all know) that has been tested by Parliament's due process. I hope it also includes a vote on the deal that the Government proposes to agree with the EU, and how it plans to replace the trade deals that have been lost by Brexit.

[Sybis]

It was absolutely the right decision and I think it was politcally- motivated grandstanding from the government to take it to the Supreme Court.

Parliament is sovereign. Yes the government does have various prerogative powers, which have a pretty broad scope in international affairs, but we entered the EU via an Act of Parliament and any use of prerogative powers that ran contrary to that act would completely undermine parliamentary sovereignity. Only parliament can undo what it has done.

Plus, its established common law that prerogative powers cannot be used to take away pre-existing rights and triggering Article 50 will ultimately lead to a loss of certain rights.

There's little to no chance or parliament voting against brexit, this is just a case of making sure leaving the EU is undertaken in line with our most basic constitutional principles.

The government was being fucking daft if it honestly thought otherwise.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Theresa May didn't lose. She had nothing to do with the case. Gina Miller brought it against David Davis in his role as Secretary of State, and it was a process issue not a competition. The devolved institutions didn't all "lose", either, the A-G for NI actually supported the government's position.

[caroldecker]

It was not obvious TM would lose -the decision was 8-3 of the judges, so nearly 30% agreed she was right. NI, Scotland and Wales lost 11-0, so they wasted money arguing.
Vote can only be on article 50, govt cannot guarantee anything (even remaining in single market/customs union) as subject to EU agreement.
There is no return after article 50 (subject to potential legal challenge), so reject deal in 2 years and WTO rules are in.

[CeciledeVolanges]

From here on, the issues are purely political, not legal. There are a number of unanswered legal questions but for political reasons they will be likely to remain unanswered. The white paper could just be a rehash of the Lancaster House speech. The bill is likely to be a one-line Bill (see Peter Bone's bill currently before the House, to be debated tomorrow) and any amendments will probably e voted down. Once the clock starts, any vote Parliament has on the deal will be illusory because it will be a Hobson's choice.

[Efferlunt]

Oh just heard about the white paper! Pleased. So the constitutional issue is that Parliament has to vote to trigger article 50. May can't use powers under the Royal Perogative to do so. That is constitutionally right and proper. Enough MPs voting not to trigger it is very unlikely though. Even if their constituents voted remain they are under no obligation to do the same.

[OrlandaFuriosa]

I'm by no means sure the WP will be pointless. If done pre bill, then unless Sarah Healey has one up her sleeve, which she might, it will take a little time and will bring out complexities that need addressing down stream. If done post bill, it will still be a useful exercise in sorting out the issues for the ongoing negotiation.

And in both cases it increases transparency.

[EnthusiasmIsDisturbed]

Great news about the white paper i feel more confident that Brexit has had to be softened

As for Corbyn he looked so incompetent I actually felt sorry for him for a few seconds he really really had to go even his supporters must be able to see this now labour are all over the place which is great for the Tories, UKIP and Libdems

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

As far as I can tell the White Paper is pointless? There has been no time scale given so presumably will be out after Article 50 is triggered which is the point of no return anyway.