To resort to "magic" to help dd sleep?

[SooWrites]

She's been having "nightmares" (I don't believe she is having nightmares, I think this is just an excuse to stay awake and pester me) since before Christmas. I've done all the usual checking she is not worried about anything, asking what the nightmares are about, looking into what she is reading/watching, talking to the school etc.

We've changed routines. Earlier to bed, hot milk and story, wind down time with no tech. I've even tried walking her once a day. It's getting worse. It was 3:30am by the time she slept last night.

We have docs app next week, in the meantime I am desperate.

We have a "cast a magic spell" we found in a spellbook at nana's house. The spell will "summon an angel" to help her sleep and chase away any nightmares. The angel is her great, great, grandma. She's sprayed "nana's hanky" with some of nana's "lucky heather" perfume and put it under her pillow asking nana to come to her while she sleeps. Nana will smell the perfume and know she is needed and come and watch her while she sleeps.

She's ten. Monster spray stopped working years ago. This is just a more grown up version of monster spray, is it not?

Did I mention I was desperate. I need her to sleep tonight.

[bookwormnerd]

Poor you and your poor dd. Have you suggested she keep a diary. Each night she can right down any worries, could even be a book you share so you can understand worries and talk about it. I have heard of people doing books that children can write letters to parents. That way she is externalising the worries rather than keeping all inside. If you think she has sen have you asked to talk to sen coordinator at school about issues rather than teacher

[SooWrites]

It worked in so far as she stayed in bed. She was asleep when I went up and only woke briefly.

She still attempted to refuse school this morning. This is a new issue that's only been going on since the start of this week. I have talked again with the school who insist she is happy there (she also says no bullying is going, she wants a day off).

Older DD was off sick last week so I think younger dd just believes she is 'owed' a day.

Older dd and I feel a lot better after a night of uninterrupted sleep and this thread has given me lots of new ideas to try if it starts up again. Fingers crossed her magic hankie works again tonight.

[Mistykit]

Oops... sorry. I missed your post saying that you've asked her what they are about.

[Mistykit]

I had v bad night terrors up until I was about 8/9. My folks didn't believe me. I was convinced my room was haunted (Google old hag night terrors/sleep paralysis). I used to sleep in the landing a lot. Maybe she is just having bad night terrors? Have you asked her what they are about? I started to leave the radio on a talk show overnight every night and still do.. that helped me a bit. The night terrors went until I was about 19 when they stared back up again and I still get them every few months :(

[Thethingswedoforlove]

Hope it worked ok Op

[SooWrites]

Oh I love wine. I drink wine at every given opportunity. Sadly being a shift/weekend working LP, those opportunities are woefully lacking.

She is still quiet. I am going to risk going to bed. I left her in my bed with her magic hankie, hopefully I can sneak in without waking her. Her bed is more frightening than mine, allegedly.

[llangennith]

And I drink a lot of wine

[llangennith]

My 9 yo DGS stays with me several nights a week. Sometimes after tucking him in he asks if I'll 'do counting' which mean I touch his arm or hand and quietly count to 100 in a very boring voice. Soothes him.
Anything which helps him to relax and sleep is fine by me.

[SooWrites]

It could be anxiety. I don't think the nightmares are real but it could be her way of explaining a feeling she doesn't understand.

She has told me that her nightmares are about people she knows dying of cancer and being at their funeral (we have had a few relatives suffer cancer but she hasn't been to any of their funerals) and me dying of drinking wine.

I do not drink wine often but my bloody mother glitters shit to sell on FB. On the rare ocassions I do drink (once or twice a year, usually) I drink here with my family. Of course, we have to keep the bottles to be covered in glitter at a later date. This has resulted in me having a shelf full of empty wine bottles ex-H 'worrying' about my drinking. He could have been quizzing dd on my drinking habits.

Perhaps she is just anxious about my drinking and people she loves dying and 'nightmare' is her way of puttting this into words she understands.

I will mention the concers to GP and ask for referral.

Just in case anyone is now worried about my 'drinking' I last had a drink on NYE. I will be next having a drink on the 28th Jan. After that there'll be no more drinking until Feb half term when we have our usual Feb Half term girls night in around here and I accumulate more bottles which will then be coated in modge podge and glitter and given back to me with paper flowers sticking out of them

I do not have drink problem. I have a mother problem

[AuditAngel]

Now you are making me wonder if DS has issues. He struggles to let go of his thoughts to go to sleep, however nightmares these days are fortunately rare.

He barely slept ax a baby so I feel that I gave already paid my penance

Good luck.

[RhodaBorrocks]

OP I really sympathise. My DS has ASD and used to suffer terrible anxiety at night. He wouldn't allow himself to sleep as he has very sensitive hearing and would hear every tiny noise outside, from the neighbours etc and would get more and more wound up.

He already had melatonin, but anxiety overrides that if they're too wound up. In desperation I bought him a cd player and the classic fm for babies cd. He would put it on at a lowish volume to drown out the noises and I'd sneak in and turn it down more when he was asleep. White noise didn't help.

Luckily it was just a phase and he now settles himself very well. But without melatonin he is also awake until the small hours.

School doesn't have to refer. When you see the GP tell them all your concerns. I did this as school just said DS was naughty and immature. GP referred us to a paediatrician for a full developmental check.

[lifeisaconundrumattimes]

I think it would be wise to chase up the referral to CAMHS. It sounds exhausting and I. Suspect your family may be right about her possibly being on the spectrum. Sleeping problems are quite common I believe.

[sleeplesshell]

Have you seen these? www.theirishfairydoorcompany.com/worry-plaque?gclid=CMCw5P6nytECFe-_7Qodwi8Irw

Might be worth a try

[SooWrites]

She has a heavy weight duvet and a synthetic fur throw - she likes the feeling of the fur on her skin.

I don't think not sleeping winds her up. She has a jolly old time hopping from room to room and raiding the fridge when everyone is in bed (and slamming doors)

We've done star charts, coin jars, treats etc. She has not earned a single star or coin since we started it at the begining of this month. I've removed tech and stopped clubs all to no avail.

Once she is asleep, she is fine. The issue is getting her to go to sleep. She just doesn't seem to have an off switch. Prior to xmas she would still be awake until after midnight most nights but would be quietly awake reading or listening to music. It's the roaming the house and waking me up to chat to me that I need to stop. I accepted long ago that she just doesn't need as much sleep as me and older dd.

It all went quiet about half an hour ago. Perhaps tonight will be the night she earns her first star.

Unfortunately, older DD who was kept awake by her until 1am last night had a long nap after school and now cannot sleep. She is fifteen though, so I think fine to leave in the sitting room reading while I go to bed.

[jay55]

Could you try a heavy/weighted blanket?

I do stupid things like count backwards from ten thousand when its the small hours and I can't sleep, which often winds me up more.

[throwingpebbles]

And totally don't believe your ex-H re her sleep! Mine is the same, 3 year old dd is a terrible sleeper, always has been, yet he would claim she had no issues sleeping at his. Thankfully my older child would occasionally let stories out when chatting (I never questioned him) that made it clear dd was just as bad a sleeper there!

[Thethingswedoforlove]

We saw the gp today as our dd2 who is 9 has been having very similar issues. Someone on mn kindly suggested using an audiobook. It seems to be working! You can buy a book from the App Store or Amazon and download it. You can then (on most recent iOS anyway) set it to play for a particular length of time. Our dd2 doesn't fall asleep listening to it but nearly always does straight after it finishes (we find 45 mins of listening better than trying to do 30). Michael morpurgo was recommended and is working for us. Got to be worth a try... also we said we wd come up to her every x minutes rather than her coming down to us. At least it kept her in her bed. We were at total end of tether too.... all the best. Feeling your pain

[throwingpebbles]

Totally fine! At least I hope it is as I had to "abracadabra" a nappy last night because my 3 year old daughter rejected two others on the grounds they were itchy .

How about slightly more soothing /less exciting books? Stuff like ballet shoes etc? Just rather than adventure books I mean

There's a huge amount to process at her age, hope you find some solutions.

[Ele13]

I used to be hideously anxious around that age, my parents never really worked out why and I couldn't tell it was anxiety- I just felt ill and generally terrible. I also had and still do have (occasional) terrible nightmares about people killing my family. It took a while but I did just grow out of it.

Being understanding, having a routine (set things that were said etc) helped, but my parents would never stay in the room with me, so it had less of an active effect on their sleep.

I was ok once asleep, unless I actually had a nightmare. Could you get her a brighter bedside light so she could read by it? It won't help her sleep either if she has to be in bright light to read. I was always reminded that nightmares aren't real and told to sit up, read for a while and then try to sleep again. If the nightmare cane back, rinse and repeat.

For both bedtime and nightmares: I also learnt alphabet games to stop my mind spinning so I could sleep: e.g. Allow 5 objects beginning with a to slowly dryift through your mind, then b. Or a food beginning with a etc.

Good luck!

[SooWrites]

An audio book might work, actually. Do you just buy these on itunes? She has an ipod touch. I know nothing about i-thingies.

She has, so far , stayed upstairs after our "spell" this is an improvement. She's usually up and down like a yo-yo until I go to bed. She is still awake, I can hear her shuffling about up there and singing to herself.

I want to go bed but I daren't in case she remembers I exist and leaves her room and starts yo-yoing around the house again.

[EineKleine]

My worry would be that by encouraging a belief in the supernatural, it'll come and bite you. How will you deal with it if she decides a bad spirit is visiting? That could totally freak her out and you'd have no way to dispell it. Telling her they don't exist won't really work if you have been carefully building her belief.

Have you tried a sensory approach - fleecy pjs, soft cushions, build a nest kind of environment for her. Or the white noise thing as PP suggested. Download an app and get her to pick which noises she likes. I guess you have tried everything or you wouldn't be asking.

What works with our DD is letting her fall asleep in our bed and then walking her through. She is too big to carry but it doesn't matter, she doesn't remember the transfer.

[LikeTheShoes]

would white noise or an audio book help?

[Heirhelp]

Ask your GP to refer her to CAMHS for an assessment.

[ohidoliketobe]

Sorry for the typos and random words. Freshly applied handcream & typing on a phone screen is a disastrous combination

[ohidoliketobe]

Is it maybe a growth/ hormonal thing? I went through a stage when I was about 11/12 where I just couldn't sleep. Being awake meant my mind was whirling and that in turn didn't help. It passed after a few months. In conversarion a few tears ago s couple of my friends mentioned that they'd also suffered a similar bout of insomnia around the pre teen years.