To feel sad that Dc's can't be in the same room unsupervised for fear of really hurting one another

[Notthinkingclearly]

I have 2 Dc's eldest is a boy of 9 and a girl if 7. They have lovely moments where they can play nicely together but it is short lived and I can't seem to leave them unsupervised as arguments seem to start very suddenly and they are both very keen to hurt one another when they fall out. I have a younger brother and can honestly say that I never remember fighting so this is making me so sad. I have recently stopped all ipad and wi use as a form of punishment but it seems to have no effect. Stupidly left them tonight in same room playing board with neighbours child. Suddenly I realised that there was a commotion and ds was stood over his sister and ramming his fist into her chest. I grabbed him off and sent him to his room but I just feel so sad why they would want to behave like this. They are never aggressive to other children. I have told them that if behaviour improves they can have limited ipad use as a reward but would love to know any other suggestions please.

[c3pu]

My brother and I used to try and kill each other.

Literally.

My two bicker and fight, but no black eyes or blood like me and my brother...

[insan1tyscartching]

My two ds's fought at about the same age. I stopped it by making one or the other (in turns) follow me every time I left the room. They were sick of it really quickly as I purposely interrupted games and tv programmes with my new rule. When they were begging me to give them another chance I agreed to give it a trial on the understanding that if they fought during the trial then we'd return to following me until they were 16 You could perhaps give it a try.

[HesterBlue]

I would be very unhappy with that kind of fighting too (my 2 kids are the same ages as yours). I also really recommend the book 'Siblings Without Rivalry' (PP linked above). Some great strategies for getting kids to talk about their feelings with the parent rather than losing it with their sibling. It also encourages parents to undo unconscious habits (eg favouritism/ comparing them to each other) and change some ways of relating to your kids; it's brilliant.

[yellowpostitnote]

To add to whoos kindness jar idea - give lots of positive praise about their characters as much as possible: you are so thoughtful and caring, you are such a good friend and play so nicely. You know how to keep calm etc. - even when they haven't really. I can depend on you to xyz as you're such a sensible person.

Research snd experiments in schools have found that daily labelling in this way has the power to change behaviour.

But it is hard. My sister and I fought a lot and it did damage our relationship actually as the teen years were hard. She was being bullied and took it out on me.

[Tummelthecat]

Interesting how different people have different ideas - I would never try and work out who started it, just say "well I'm stopping it, now go to your rooms for xxx minutes." Otherwise you end up being a 24 hour a day referee. The other mantra to keep repeating is "Keep your hands to yourself and treat other people the way you want to be treated." Incidentally, I always thought I had completely stopped the fighting but the kids now tell me I just drove it underground. But they survived, and so will yours. Good
luck, and be firm.

[Cakingbad]

If violent fighting was happening frequently in my family and I could not stop it, I would look for some sort of expert help. I agree with other posters who say it is not normal. Totally unacceptable to me.

[HumphreyCobblers]

You need to read this book [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Siblings-Without-Rivalry-Children-Together/dp/1853406309/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1483522164&sr=8-1&keywords=siblings%20without%20rivalry&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21 Siblings Without Rivalry]]

Honestly it will help you address this situation effectively and with understanding.

I recommend it as a parent, a sibling and a teacher.

[forwhom]

Wow my kids don't fight like that at all and I never did with my siblings

My husband did with his and now he has a very odd relationship with them.

I never realised it was normal?

[Chippednailvarnishing]

Arguing is normal but violence is not

This^

I'm amazed at this thread.
I wouldn't tolerant my DCs hitting a child from outside the family anymore than I would tolerate them hitting each other. Violence has no place in my home and both DCs know this. They are argue but never physically fight as they know there would be severe consequences.

[Temporaryname137]

my DB and I fought a lot- physically until about 10/8 and verbally until about 18/16. if we spend a lot of time together now, like a family holiday, we still bicker a bit. but mostly we're really good mates now.

most likely they will grow out of it. perhaps you could try to make them understand the consequences of fighting and that it's horrible for you - that's what used to work for us, as we didn't like making DM unhappy.

[KC225]

I have boy/girl twins. One minute apart and I am so bored of people saying 'ohhh I wanted twins because they always have someone to play with' Yeah. Sure they do 20% of the time. The rest they ate trying to goug each other's eyes out

[Believeitornot]

My two are 5&7 and have their moments. I am constantly working on talking to each of them to hear both sides of the story and we talk about what they should and shouldn't do.

If there's any physical violence then I will be very firm that that is unacceptable. I also talk to each of them and explain that yes siblings can be annoying and it's ok to feel angry etc but the thing to do is walk away and get an adult if need be.

They both know that they'll be listened to by me even if one of them thinks they're in the wrong

There's a book called siblings without rivalry which I've found incredibly useful for dealing with issues. I'd recommend reading it.

In many cases I think sibling rivalry is a case of working out how to parent. It takes all sorts of mental gymnastics and patience. Especially if you yourself had sibling issues. E.g. My DH is inclined to take the side of our youngest, because he was the youngest but actually if he takes a step back then you can see it isn't always that clear cut.

[WaxyBean]

Another one with DC that fight. Constant low level squabbling with incidents where it gets physical, and sometimes with real intent.

They are very close but do things to each other they would never stand for others doing to their sibling.

Drives me bonkers - I feel like a referee much of the time. But I also remember fighting with my brothers like this and we get on fine now.

[Gooseberryfools]

Aim to deal with the issue two ways. Clear repercussions after an incident and preventive strategies. The latter will be most effective

[Gooseberryfools]

Also I know it might look like your DD is the worst behaved here but it might just be that your DS is very sly

[Gooseberryfools]

My brother and I fought. He was very strong and often hurt me. My parents were emotionally distant and didn't have any boundaries around hitting/bullying/nastiness so got away with it. No repercussions. We fought because we were both unhappy, a bit jealous of eachother and needing positive parental attention. I knew how useless my parents were. They were not interested in sorting out smaller issues or unfairness and things escalated quickly as a result. I couldn't stand unfairness.

In your shoes I would give each child quality attention and praise. Helping them feel better will have a huge knock on effect. The worse a child is the more they need. But of course they need sanctions too. Send both kids to their own rooms if it's s two way fight. Send one to her/his room if ta a one way thing.

Also lead by example. So kindness. Taking turns.

[user1477282676]

womb That post is so extreme!

[bumsexatthebingo]

"so you may need to have your children assessed for MH problems"

Quite possibly the biggest overreaction I've read on here.

[UnderbeneathsiesTheMistletoe]

I agree with downwiththissortofthing.

Make very sure your kids aren't bullying or abusing each other.

Set a family meeting and ask them to contribute ideas toward making home life safe for everyone. Construct a contract, and you all sign it.
I'm my home:
I am safe
I am loved
I am relaxed
I am supported
No one shouts
No one hits
No one bites
No one sneers

That kind of thing.

I was beaten up regularly by my older sister, and once knocked out. She had MH problems when she was an adult, so you may need to have your children assessed for MH problems.

A friend of mine was raped repeatedly by her older brother, her mother couldn't work out why they didn't get on, and used to lump them together more because she thought this would fix things.

This kind of violence and abuse isn't normal.

They may need separate schools, friends and hobbies. You will need to facilitate that.
Don't lump them together unsupervised or let one spoil something for the other with mocking and sneering.

You need to keep up this work until all bad behaviour is gone.
You need to give each one, one on one time with you.
Exhausting, but be careful there isn't bullying and abuse going on.

What kind of things are they seeing on YouTube?

Do they eat wheat and dairy and sugar. Try a vegetarian whole foods diet for a while.

I think you need outside help actually. Sounds like the dynamics are very broken. This violence isn't normal horse play.

IMO You need to take immediate action. Punching to the chest could result in death. This is serious assault.

[hunibuni]

There's 3 years between me and DB and we fought viciously when we were kids. There were several memorable occasions where we concussed each other and our parents used to get so fed up that they used to separate us. That was exactly what we wanted so one afternoon after a particularly nasty fight where chunks of hair were lost (mine) and blood was drawn (his after I bit him) my dad put us into a huge T-shirt where we only had one arm free and made us do chores under his supervision. Any sabotage of the other's effort resulted in more work for us both and after being stuck together for nearly 12 hours (did I mention we were stubborn buggers?) we reached a truce. I must have been about 10 or 11 at the time. We were never great friends while I lived at home but we did rub along and we're very close as adults. The one thing that we both admit is that we were jealous of the other, even if the source was petty and stupid.

[TwidowWanky]

Sorry OP it sounds horrible for all of you.
I'm six years younger than my DB and we were enemies until I was late teen, so he in his mid-20s and long since left home.
He used to sit down on my arms to punch me, called me vicious names about my appearance which really hurt my confidence. he was merciless at taking the piss out of my physical puberty changes especially in front of friends which gave me a wired relationship with food. He would also tell me frightening stories about supernatural things from horror films, serial murderers etc to scare me and it made me very anxious.

I really hated him and spent as much time as I could out of the house with friends. I remember on a few pathetic occasions, trying to get him to be friends which fell very flat. there was nothing he liked about me, which was crushing.

Our DM and DF used to sigh with annoyance and say ' sort it out amongst yourselves' or seperate us for a short while but under punishment terms which was awful. They never looked into why. We also shared a bedroom for years so it was relentless.

My DB left home as soon as he could and moved far away, to my relief. He came back home for a visit once when I was about 18. DB talked about how it was and he said sorry. He told me about how he'd been bullied at school throughout secondary (so since I was 5) which I hadn't known - though I knew he stole from us and truanted. He'd changed his school a few times so I think my parents were aware.

And about how he felt himself not the favourite child; which I knew was true. He told me loads of other difficult stuff about our past which for me completely took the blame away from him from 'just being a horrible person' as I had regarded him. It showed me two hurt, angry children with no adult support.

Our parents were at each other's throats with various other issues going on when we were kids and it was shit for us all so we turned on each other. Not surprisingly neither of us are close with our parents now. I now have a friendship with my DB which I really value, though he still lives a long way away.

OP you sound like a lovely proactive parent. Your DC's issues will be coming from somewhere. They're not young kids who know no better than hitting. I'd suggest you and DH each sit them down separately to talk and really really listen. repeat and swap if you're not sure if you're hearing it all. Also speak to their teachers about the situation. Good luck and hope that things improve soon.

[DailyFail1]

Just to add - cousin's youngest was later diagnosed on the autism spectrum.

[DailyFail1]

Is one of them more spoiled than the other by you or your dh? Perceptions of inequality can make violence worse. I also suggest you get a baby cam or similar in any room they're together in - might help you get to the root of the problem. Cousin did that with her kids and found the youngest dd was the one starting all the fights and eldest dd would only hit back after she got seriously hurt.

[DJBaggySmalls]

Arguing is normal but violence is not. Try family therapy. They have to learn better ways to manage conflict.
If they've never seen your family arguing and getting over it, they wont have a model to use for arguments.

[corythatwas]

bumsex' suggestion is a good one

it is true that some siblings do dislike each other and get physical very quickly, but that doesn't mean that you have to accept it, any more than you would have to accept it if they were, say, very light-fingered and found it hard to resist the temptation to help themselves from your purse

unacceptable is still unacceptable, whatever the temptation

you have the right to insist on a certain level of civilised behaviour in your home

the fact that it's normal is neither here nor there: it is probably also normal for adults to want to hit someone who really winds them up, but we no longer accept wife-beating on the grounds of normality