I'm petrified of working for a female boss.

[earlyrise]

I recently accepted a new job and my line manager changed from male to female after I signed the contract. To put it bluntly - I'm gutted.

Despite being relatively young, I'm a skilled professional with nearly 20 years' experience in my (male-dominated) field and have risen to a good level within my career at a fairly good pace. I have a solid reputation among my peers as being diligent, reliable, popular and most importantly able to deliver. I'm a boss too and I really try to be aware of my attitude and behaviour with my team and I think I've done pretty well on this one.

Despite my success, I feel I've suffered at the hands of the female bosses who have appeared in my life. Without fail, when it's time to re-structure (which happens every six months these days) I've either been demoted or let go pretty soon (once three times in two years by the same boss). Despite this I've never received any negative feedback and they've always provided fantastic references once I was gone.

Over the years, I've tried all the tactics - be quiet, be friendly, not challenge, be more visible, be less visible, not complain, do extra work, wear flat shoes, give compliments, promote her among her peers, not be too confident, be less good, not promote my achievements etc...but nothing seemed to work for any of them. I gave up on my career and left my job to be unemployed.

When I reflect on my experiences over the last 20 years, there seems to be a pattern. The male bosses in my career, in comparison have mentored, promoted and supported me and done everything in their power to sponsor my success. It's been a different world and was able to be myself.

Is there anything I can do to make it better this time? I'm so scared.

[whattheseithakasmean]

'One of the women has been moved to another department and it's been recognised that there is problem within the department created by these women. It's still ongoing but it's been recognised that it's the female leadership team who are causing the issues and from what I've been told they're looking to have a more balanced spread within the department.''

OK - now how about this rephrasing:
.
''One of the managers has been moved to another department and it's been recognised that there is problem within the department created by these managers. It's still ongoing but it's been recognised that it's the leadership team who are causing the issues and from what I've been told they're looking to have a more balanced spread within the department.'

You see - you have a problem with the management. It is totally unnecessary and irrelevant that these managers happen to be women. Do they also all happen to be able bodied? Would that be relevant to you? Let's try it:

'One of the able bodied managers has been moved to another department and it's been recognised that there is problem within the department created by these able bodied people. It's still ongoing but it's been recognised that it's the able bodied leadership team who are causing the issues and from what I've been told they're looking to have a more balanced spread within the department.''

Do you get my point? Their sex is irrelevant, it is the management style that is the problem.

[EllyMayClampett]

Can women be terrible bosses?
Yes

Are they terrible bosses because they are women?
NO

[Wewereonabreak1]

Oh goodness we're going round in circles. Any toxic environment was created by a group of women who felt they could behave in any way they chose, not by people like myself who came in and got in with their job as they had done for years.

Interestingly, I texted a friend whom I haven't spoken to in a month or so to see how she's getting on (she works in the aforementioned hell hole) and to see how the situation is...prompted by our discussion. One of the women has been moved to another department and it's been recognised that there is problem within the department created by these women. It's still ongoing but it's been recognised that it's the female leadership team who are causing the issues and from what I've been told they're looking to have a more balanced spread within the department. This isn't my opinion, I should add. It's what I'm being told.

At this particular juncture I work with many men and women who are absolutely brilliant a funny, happy and great at their jobs. I'm not going to change my mind that these women in my last place of employment have created misery for many and I think if I were to ask those who worked there, they would agree with me. For me, this ends the discussion. You're entitled to keep going of course but I've had a horrible time at the hands of the women I've discussed previously, as have many other good folk whom I know and like. I've worked hard to be able to admit that the work I did was amazing (and I never treated people the way I was treated) and led me into the awesome job I'm in now and you're not going to convince me that using "women" to describe them is wrong.

[whattheseithakasmean]

wewere - where did I condone your bosses behaviour? I didn't and do not condone poor management. I asked you to challenge yourself as to why you picked out their sex as a dominant characteristic, in a way that is never done for male bosses. It sounds as if you and your bosses were all part of a toxic work environment, which is a deeply upsetting situation to find yourself in, but clinging to your beliefs about the behaviour of your bosses based on their sex is just what perpetuates these environments.

[Wewereonabreak1]

I've never said it would speaknowords

I'd never refuse a job based on who was managing and I'd readily accept the job if it were the right job for me. but I think the likes of whatthe try to belittle and stop people speaking about their experiences because they don't agree and I don't think that's in the spirit of mumsnet. But perhaps that has changed over the years.

[SpeakNoWords]

No one should condone this bad behaviour from your previous bosses. They should not have tried to blame their behaviour on being women in a hostile workplace.

But, none of that means that the next woman boss you work for will behave the same way.

[Wewereonabreak1]

No what you're doing is condoning their behaviour and trying to dress it up in intelligent words.

These women had a choice like every other person and they as adults chose to behave like that. It's very simple. We see things very differently. You condone it and I never have and never will.

[whattheseithakasmean]

They were challenged on their behaviour and their response was that as they were female they felt that was the way they had to act in the workplace.

So it appears these women were trying to accommodate an environment hostile to women, which is why they felt they had to behave in a certain way. Why do you think that is? Do you think they had constantly been on the receiving end of the internalised misogyny and unconscious bias you have displayed as they progressed up the organisation? Can you see how that creates a hostile environment for women workers, which you perpetuate when you keep alluding to their sex when describing behaviour you don't like?

That is why we have unconscious bias training. You have received bad work place experiences and it has coloured your view of all women bosses. You need to work on unpicking that so you can understand the paradigm in which you were all operating that made their sex relevant, to you and it appears from what you say, to them.

Please do not continue to carry around the weight of unconscious prejudice, look more broadly to understand how the world in which we work continues to disadvantage women at every level in the work place. That way you can start to become part of the solution, rather than part of the problem.

[Wewereonabreak1]

whatthe

It's interesting what people have to say on here. There are certain unalienable facts. I and some colleagues have had awful experiences at the hands of bosses who were female. I'm not backing down on that. They were challenged on their behaviour and their response was that as they were female they felt that was the way they had to act in the workplace. Stamp and ride roughshod over other people. They themselves put it down to being women. I also really don't need to explain myself to you or explain my experiences. All I can say is that I'm really glad I don't know you or your quickness to label everyone sexist, racist, disabilist.

Read back and see that I've said that I'm sure men can act like that nor do I think all women are the same but you speak based on your experiences. twiglet read back where I discuss tinder etc and you'll see that I've been clear that this behaviour could well be present on men - I've just not seen it.

Day in and day out I deal with facts and interpretations of those facts (the law) and what I have told you is fact based on what I've witnessed and what's happened to me. How you choose to interpret that is entirely up to you. We won't agree and I think your attitude stinks - I'm sure you think the same of me.

If I were a woman and came on here to discuss domestic violence I wouldn't be told to stop talking and that I'm sexist because not all men are abusers, would I? No. I most certainly wouldn't but it's quite alright to tell me that because it's women I'm talking about and even though I'm not talking about all women you feel the need to belittle me.

I'm certainly not the one with a problem.

[whattheseithakasmean]

Yup, misogyny and sadly as we have seen on this thread some women have internalised that misogyny.

Wewere of course I would be sympathetic about any trauma you were put through during maternity leave. I support women in the workplace! What I would not do is single out the fact that the bad boss you experienced happened to be female (or black, or gay, or disabled, or Muslim or any other completely irrelevant fact).

Can you not understand that the fact you are highlighting that bad boss behaviour is from women is an example of your internalised misogyny? You have not picked up on any other trait but their sex, which posters are trying to explain to you is not relevant. Male bosses are just bosses, it seems, but female bosses are always female bosses and somehow their sex is always used against them in describing unfavourable behaviour.

As you say, it is just as well you do not manage people, because the unconscious bias you display is rife in the workplace and all women workers have a harder time as a result of it.

[brasty]

I have seen colleagues be much more critical of female bosses than male bosses. I suspect that is common. And it is down to misogyny.

[TwigletsMakeMeViolent]

Sorry, wewere, I shouldn't have used the word bleating, that was unfair.

I think the disconnect is here: you have said that you don't judge managers for being women. Yet you have repeatedly said that there are certain behaviours that only women do at work (the Tinder, banning small talk, your maternity experience). I and other posters have tried to point out that these behaviours are NOT exclusive to women, and therefore no woman deserves to be held accountable for the actions of OTHER women. Which is what you're doing - even though you have said you are not.

Does that make sense?

[Wewereonabreak1]

whatthe

I'm not quite sure what to say to you

Just that it's a bit strange that you cannot understand anyone's position but your own so they, by definition, must be a bigot, sexist, racist.

I haven't even spoken about the trauma that I was put through during my maternity leave at the hands of a boss.

You wouldn't be interested though...it doesn't fit with your agenda.

[Wewereonabreak1]

Bleating? interesting word choice.

I've been quite clear that my experience is not representative of all women and I've been explicit that there are some great female leaders/bosses out there.

I've also been quite clear that I would always take a job where I would be managed by a woman because I understand that not everyone is the same.

That being said, it's quite clear on a site like this that your opinion must fit with the majority or you're singled out and called every name under the sun.

Reading your reply twiglet it's pretty clear that it's condescending and almosts deigns to accept that my experiences are almost valid but not quite because they don't match yours.

And no, I'm a technical specialist working with Tax Law so thankfully I manage case work and not people.

[whattheseithakasmean]

My last post was do wewere. Sexism is not a protected characteristic.

[TwigletsMakeMeViolent]

"Why should I not be able to share my experiences?"

Of course you can. But your experiences don't represent All Women. My experiences are different to yours. I've had terrible male bosses. But I don't go round bleating about how I look out for certain behaviour from men. And my experiences don't invalidate yours, or vice versa. But they're anecdotes.

"Does that fact that you dont agree with me make my experiences irrelevant or untrue?"

See above answer.

"Have you considered that the way I have been treated and witnessed others being treated by these women has left me particularly upset?"

Yes but that is neither here nor there. You cannot expect the same behaviour from managers in the future because they have a vagina.

wewere have you ever been a manager?

[wewereonabreak1]

A bigot is someone who doesn't tolerate those with a different opinion.

Sounds a lot like you.

[whattheseithakasmean]

No, the post referred to that asked you uncomfortable questions that made you face your prejudices has not been deleted. I don't apologise to bigots.

Care to answer the difficult questions?

[wewereonabreak1]

Apology accepted whatthe

It would appear my literacy skills are just fine.

I'll also add that your oh so clever jibes don't change any of the experiences I've shared or anything I've said. It's pretty sad that you'd try to belittle me in such a manner.

Assuming that you are also a woman there's a particular irony about what you're doing (defender of women's right) while calling me all the names you can think of.

[wewereonabreak1]

Page 2.

Go check.

It's been deleted.

[ChasedByBees]

I can see you've acknowledged YABU.

You said, you've tried: "not be too confident, be less good, not promote my achievements".

That's all going to make you look a little unimpressive.

Try assuming your boss won't feel outshined and jealous and instead that she wants you to perform at your best.

[Bluechip]

But...but...you are a female boss OP. Do you have those characteristics? Are people petrified of working for you?

Glad you've come back to say YABU