What are the consequences for lying to the electorate?

[Saxie007]

What can we do to ensure that the facts given are true? If MPs, special advisors and those on the campaign trail lie and it can be proven to be untrue in a court of law is there some form of redress that the public could take?

I am primarily thinking of the £350M to the NHS claim which was clearly rubbish.

If it was advertising we could fine the company and ban the ad.

We are dealing with liers here. How can we flush them out of our political system to make sure the facts are clear and true in future debates. Politicians have no moral code. They should be ashamed and the good ones are.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

The Commission power to initiate anything which is in the spirit of the treaties led us where we are today.

The inability to listen/react/change/stop extending further powers (ECJ interpret in spirit of treaties) it cannot be considered it is merely a way of saving a bit of time on some technical issues with some tiresome legislation.....students use this theory, but the reality of it not being true stares us all in the face.

When it was just Coal and Steel - back in the day - then yes a case could be made. But it is a seriously spurious to imply the EU works with our permission. That would have been the worrying part of a remain vote, as it would actually have been the first time the Commision had our mandate.

Junker's reaction this weekend typifies everything that is wrong with power being so distant. Junker does not believe he works for people of Europe - how exactly do elected leaders of countries have to tip toe around Junker?

Yes I do know how he's elected - but no, it is not what is considered democractic except amongst those wishing it was. It is almost doublespeak.

This level of power being so distant and unaccountable leads to corruption - EU Commission Fraud (Santer).

I appreciate you may feel this is democratic system - but lots clearly don't agree with you, thankfully.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

whogrew:

Perhaps this may help you - indpendent enough ? A document clearly biased to interpret the EU as favourably as possible. I previously linked to this document last week -

The Jaques Delors Institute, Paris - asking has the Commission's monopoly on legislative initiative been eroded : no.

The Power of Initiative of the European Commission: A Progressive Erosion?
//www.notre-europe.eu/media/commission_power_of_initiative_ne_feb2012.pdf?pdf=ok

"Even though the power of initiative may provide the Commission with less freedom than between 1966 and the progressive affirmation of codecision as the ordinary legislative procedure, there may still be room for a bolder use of it in the framework of the Community Method as, formally, it has not been eroded to a significant extent.

The Commission has increasingly considered itself politically committed to following up the requests of the European Council. Indeed, the president of the Commission is also a member of the European Council and, as such, he participates in the drafting of its conclusions. At the end of the nineties, an internal study by the European Commission already showed that the “mandates” to the European Commission numbered between five and ten requests at each session of the European Council. Further, the Council may request the Commission “to submit to it any appropriate proposals".

[Saxie007]

It seems I'm not the only one. Here's a petition to criminalise misleading the public for electoral gain.

www.change.org/p/rt-hon-theresa-may-mp-make-it-a-criminal-offence-to-knowingly-mislead-the-public-to-achieve-electoral-gain?recruiter=95246710&utm_source=petitions_show_components_action_panel_wrapper&utm_medium=copylink

[Saxie007]

Thanks Sleep One Day. That was a first step.

Most politicians work hard for us. A few bad apples lie & I feel there need to be consequences. I don't want to be fed and have to evaluate the lies 1950s Mum. They shouldn't lie, it mustn't be acceptable. If I deliberately lied at work it would not be good for my job security. That's how it should be in an honest world.

I'm confident that I voted the right way for my family, friends and my country's future. I have no remorse. However, I feel that the campaign on both sides was made so much more divisive by the stories being told by our politicians. This I find totally unacceptable. If we, the public, are given big decisions we should have confidence in our leaders that we are being given the true facts on all sides.

I want our country to be great and united. I want all our people, up and down the country, to have good, stable fulfilling jobs or feel supported to be a carer for children/old/sick people and in any case have a fulfilling role in society. I want people to feel like they can do well and help us make this country and the world a better place. Maybe I'm an optimist but think that this what most people want, but how do we get from this shambles to there? But that's not this AIBU. Just no more lying to the electorate and appropriate consequences if you do.

[throwingpebbles]

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_576e2967e4b08d2c56393241?edition=uk

[sleeponeday]

Sorry if anyone has already linked to it, but there's a petition to give the Electoral Commission powers to intervene when any electioneering material lies or misleads - at the moment, nobody can do a thing about it.

It's here. Neutral of any side; both lied in their campaigns. Hopefully all can agree that it isn't acceptable, and there should be a body who can intervene.

[whogrewoutoftheterribletwos]

And leave - I think you should read up on what the Commission actually does, who appoints it, and what it's powers are. From a source that isn't eurosceptical. Also, maybe read up on the UK civil service and what it does at the same time. Don't neglect to look up subordinate legislation while you're at it.

You've just handed over power to a far less democratic government, but the difference is there is now no possible challenge to any legislation in the UK, as parliament is 'sovereign'.

Yes, that parliament with an entirely unelected second chamber, an unelected head of state, and a voting system that only works if you have two parties and no more that 20 people voting. No real separation of powers. At the same time you've consigned the long term prospects of the economy to the equivalent of a slug's death when slightly sprinkled with salt. Well done.

[whogrewoutoftheterribletwos]

As a general point, disregarding all the political hate: any election campaign (any vote put to electorate) that advertises or relies on deliberate misinformation or lies constitutes electoral fraud, and thus the result should be found void.

Any lies told to the public during a term of office are a different matter. Don't conflate Blair's alleged war crimes with the fabrications perpetuated during the EU referendum please

[mimishimmi]

Low birthrates, entrenched poverty, class warfare.... consequences all gladly welcomed by some.

[MrHannahSnell]

Consequences for lying to the electorate? High office, a peerage on retirement and sometimes a state funeral if history is anything to go by.

[BillSykesDog]

You can put in some of you like, but seeing as I was referring to what I'd read on Mumsnet I didn't think it was necessary to add that it didn't apply to all Remainers.

[BarmySmarmy]

BillSykes: do you want to insert a 'some' anywhere in your description of what 'Remainers' want - or are you reciprocally happy to be lumped in with every characteristic and reason for the Leave vote?

[BarmySmarmy]

Cody: right now, yes you can. But not after we sign the exit clause, probably.

And if you go now, you probably won't be able to stay in the long term. No if the French do what we are likely to do with EU nationals who live here; allow the ones who registered for NI numbers before an exit to stay, but everyone else has to go.

Right now, British students can get a free university education in the Netherlands. They can even get a grant paid to them, for their maintenance. That will stop. (Just in time for my DC to go to Uni)

[BarmySmarmy]

It isn't about 'can' or 'will', it is about the big untruth:
"We will be able to save £350 million a week"

They CANNOT spend savings of £350m a week on the NHS, schools or a massive candy floss machine , because our net spend on membership of the EU is not and never has been £350m a week.

[38cody]

So what does the freedom of movement mean in real terms? Before Thursday I could rock up in France with my kids - get a job there and put my kids in local French state schools. Can I still do that or not?

[mrsglowglow]

Bill you forgot the one where only intelligent people should be given the right to vote. It is quite terrifying that so many people appear to have these narrow minded views. Never realised until last week how divided a country we are.

[BillSykesDog]

So, so far today I've read that Remainers want the old to fuck off and die; gerrymandering to give votes more worth based on people's age or location in the UK (and therefore their likeliness to vote for them); rules changed after a referendum because they don't like the result; parliament to unilaterally reject the referendum because they don't like the result and finally the leaders of the 'Leave' campaign jailed.

Honestly, I am absolutely fucking terrified I live in a country where people hold views like this. I'm interested to hear when exactly they want to ban any political opposition and set up their own Stasi style thought police. I'm actually seriously starting to see how civil wars and dictatorships start.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Valentine :

We have the Commission telling us :

whom we should give benefits to;
dictating whether we can set a limit on migrant workers;
enforcing VAT rules (can't reduce to 0%)
EU judges having supremacy over ours .....just a few.

Most of the virgin initiatives have happened and passed from the Treaty and are enacted in our every day lives.... Or hadn't you noticed....

About 10% a year of initiatives are now Commission treaty objectives - as Junker said they should be patient and go slowly with further integration to take people with them.

The rest of the time is spent with Commission approved initiatives that implement and change laws which impact on 100% of our business when 85% of our businesses are home market and legislation is just a cost to them. Keeps the MEPs busy that bit.

The treaties are interepreted by EU Judges - and we are unable to change, overturn any law - as they are enforced by ECJ.

Is that enough for you? It is fundamentally bigger than MEPs passing bits of paper on irrelevant laws that no one cares about in the last year....

It is about supranational insitiutions.

No one asked the British public if they wanted sovereignity handed over to a higher authority we are unable to remove (Commission).

You sound like one of the remainers that think the MEPs run the European Union. Oh dear.

[marsybum]

And this..

[marsybum]

This looks pretty misleading to me..

[That1950sMum]

It wasn't tricky to see through the lies. I blame the voters who didn't even bother to question this nonsense.

[smellylittleorange]

leavetheroundabout OP has quite clearly stated she is talking about all politicians this isn't about leave vs remainers OP has a valid point!

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Have you considered suing Blair also? War crimes would be a start.

Blair was one of those classic: how can you tell when a liar is lying? His lips are moving.

You're going to be really busy once you get started.

I'd like to sue those on the Remain side that say the Commission is just like our civil service.

It has legislative initiative - which we elect a government for and they pass back to us, to choose someone else to give it to.

We don't elect the Commision. Our civil service draft - they don't initiate the legislation..... elected government does.

House of Lords and MEP's have limited legislative initiative on "non controversial matters " and may ask the Commission, who will decide if in spirit of treaties etc.

[Valentine2]

leavetheround
So let's see how much solid facts you have actually rather than the rhetoric that you have spewed. Tell me how many laws were imposed on Great Britain in the last one year? And how many of them impacted your daily life and how many were made by the British Parliament along with their impact on your daily life.

[Valentine2]

YANBU
I want them in jail too. Not sniggering like that fucker Farage was doing right after the results started coming in. But anyway, when you DO know someone has been lying to you, its YOUR responsibility to make decisions after researching all options. Just because others lie, you can't put the blame on the squarely.
I think it's just not politicians. It's media too. Whatever happened to investigative journalism regarding this referendum before the polling day itself.