To think only essential work should take place at night?

[daffodildaisyyellowblue]

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/three-million-britons-working-night-shifts-and-endangering-their-health-10438592.html

Working nights is bad for your health.

Obviously some jobs like doctors and nurses just have to work nights and I get that can't be avoided, but does McDonald's and tesco and the like really need to be open 24/7? Isn't that unfair on the workers?

[descalina]

I'm a bit surprised by some of the replies on this thread. Lots of people don't have complete freedom of choice in accepting a job - they couldn't turn something down just because it involved shifts/nights.

But if you get rid of those jobs, they'll still be out of a job, so they won't be any better off?

[Andrewofgg]

daffodil What you say is logical. But if you allowed people who have never had caring responsibilities and could more easily work nights - mostly men - to retire earlier than those who have - mostly female - there would be a yell of Discrimination that would be heard from Land's End to John o' Groats (and if we stay in the EU would also reverberate at Luxembourg) without a telephone!

[BlueMoonRising]

Correlation does not equal causation.

Is it that working at night is bad for your health, or is it that the people that want to work nights on a permanent basis are less likely to take goodc are of themselves?

I don't know the answer, maybe the studies have shown it is the first option, but I'm just putting it out there...

[Zanymummy]

Depends on their employers idea of rest time, MY dh usually works a 4 day nightshift giving him good rest/recovery time and gets his shift allowance and bonuses, Then my friend he was told due to revised practices their nightshift pay will be brought into line with their day time colleagues and doesn't get as much down time as other shift workers and always tired but stuck there due to jobs market, In short it all depends on how the company treats their employees that affect their long term health

[DaphneWhitethigh]

This BMJ meta analysis on heart disease found no risk from evening shifts, but significant risk from consistent night shifts or changing shifts.

Evening shifts can be loosely described as shifts where more than half the hours fall between 4 and midnight. Night shifts have more than half the hours between midnight and 8am.

It seems intuitively plausible that evening shifts would be safe. If you come off shift at midnight, home by one, asleep by two, then you're asleep during that crucial time when your body thermostat cools you down and even if you stay in bed until 10am you're still basically diurnal and have the chance to get a fair amount of sunshine (maybe more than many office workers).

[Sallyhasleftthebuilding]

There was talk of a shift pattern for schools as they are all becoming full!

That's the next step - school building are expensive - so why not use the space?

After that it will be holiday catch up schools -

[Vintage45]

This is where things become dangerous. Everyone should be paid more for unsociable hours otherwise it become expected and it is a form of exploitation.

[StepAwayFromTheThesaurus]

Shutting at 11pm doesn't mean all the workers in McDonalds go home. It certainly didn't when I worked in a McD's that shut at 11. The shift manager had to sort everything out before s/he can go home. This takes ages. The night cleaning crew comes in and scrubs the entire place down after the place shuts. Everything doesn't stop when the doors are locked to customers.

[DaphneWhitethigh]

Yep.

www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/occupational-disease/cancer/shift-work.htm

And that's why I don't think "but they should be allowed to make choices that might be bad for them, it's a free country" is a complete answer.

[MumOnTheRunCatchingUp]

Working nights gives you cancer? Seriously?

[daffodildaisyyellowblue]

But Andrew, nights would be enhanced. Day would be the standard rate. Night work is inconvenient really and does have a damaging and negative impact on health.

carol, not all. Or it's marginal. When I worked nights in a nursing home it was 40p more an hour!

[caroldecker]

Most night work is better paid

[Andrewofgg]

I don't. People whose caring responsibilities make it impossible for them to work nights having to work longer for the pension they have paid for at the same rate as the people withou children or dependent parents?

That would be popular, wouldn't it? Imagine the response on MN!

[daffodildaisyyellowblue]

I think what you've suggested is fair and sensible wheat

[DaphneWhitethigh]

No it was a bit before my time Andrew. I'm listening to Round The Horne repeats on the iPlayer app at the moment. I desperately wanted to NC to Dame Celia Molestrangler but someone got there first.

[Osolea]

The thing is, it's either an acceptable risk to a persons health or it's not.

You can't say that working nights is so terrible that we shouldn't do it, and then still expect doctors, police officers etc to carry on just because we need their work more. Their health and their personal lives are just as important as those of people who can only get work at night in supermarkets and fast food restaurants.

What I meant earlier was that the risk can't be that big, or we wouldn't all be living longer than ever before.

[ZiggyFartdust]

Its not about the burgers, that's my point. If you closed all the burger joints by 11pm, all the people who work nights in them are now unemployed. Add them to all the other night workers you want to "help" by removing their jobs.

What do they all do then?

[DaphneWhitethigh]

There are advantages to working a 24 hour economy, for businesses, employers and customers. The pp above who talked about the advantages of making full use of expensive manufacturing machinery in a competitive global economy had a good point.

By comparison there was no comparable advantage in letting the many people who wanted to smoke fags in their local pub or work at heights without doing all their harnesses up carry on doing those things. So we're not going to get a full legal ban.

But I think we need to take into account the health damage done to shift workers. I don't think people are necessarily going into it with their eyes open to the risk making an informed free choice. And I don't think employers are recompensing them or acknowledging the risks - and I were their EL insurer I'd be advising them to watch their backs and follow the HSE guidelines to the letter.

[Andrewofgg]

DaphneWhiteThigh At the risk of repeating myself, if people want fresh food at 9.00 somebody has to drive through the night to deliver it and somebody else has to be up at sparrow's fart to stock the shops. It's impossible to define a list of "necessary" night jobs.

O/t: I like your screen-name. Are you another of the dwindling number who listened to Beyond Our Ken when it was new?

[daffodildaisyyellowblue]

I just think burgers aren't that important Ziggy although I take your point :)

[ZiggyFartdust]

I'm still wondering what you think should happen to all those night workers if you got rid of their jobs? Do you think they'd thank you for making them all unemployed?

[HermioneJeanGranger]

I'm not belligerent I just don't think you've thought it through at all.