To be concerned about this?

[Frequency]

I started a thread a while back about the volume of food DC1 was eating under her secondary school's new lunch system (you pay online into an account, the child's thumbprint is scanned every time they make a purchase and the money debited from their account)

Well, it's come to light as to why she is buying so much food and it's not because she has grown a second stomach. She is subisidising her friends on free school meals.

She claims that sometimes their free school meal money does not get paid into their account on time, which I don't believe. I believe that they are following DC1 and other non free school meal friends and buying snacks at break, which their funds don't cover.

It's not so much the money that is bothering me, it's amounting to £2-3 a week, which whilst I'm hardly rolling in it, is not going to bankrupt me, especially if the girls in question would genuinely go without lunch otherwise (doubtful)

What's concerning me is the potential for bullying. For background info, DC1 was bullied relentlessly throughout year 6 and this is how it started.

She had a friend who never seemed to have any money. This friend would spend most weekends at our house, eating our food and joining our family activities, which didn't bother me at the time, she appeared to be a nice, if somewhat lonely girl, whose parents may be a bit busy to deal with her (she just turned up one weekend and stayed)

If they had plans with other friends this girls parents would never give her money, so without my knowledge DC1 funded her from her pocket money. Paying for her lunch in town or snacks after swimming and loaning her swimsuits etc because she had none. It was very sad and if I'd known I'd have felt for the girl.

One day DC1 didn't want to buy her lunch, she wanted to spend her pocket money on a book she'd been waiting for. This girl then threatened her, telling her if she didn't give her half of her pocket money, she would turn all of D1's friends against her. DC1 didn't give in, the girl stuck to her word. It got very nasty and didn't stop until I told the school if it was not dealt with I'd have to involve the police.

I'm worried that if DC1 has no money one day or simply wants to spend it on herself, that these two girls also start on her and that they may be taking advantage of her generous nature.

They seem to be spending most of their money on cakes and cookies (not ideal I agree) so I've suggested to DC1 that she make a couple of batches of cakes and cookies to take in with her and save everyone a bit of money, but it doesn't stop me being concerned that she is setting herself up to be bullied again. The girls are all in year 8.

[composemail]

Well done op. I think you have handled it very very well and your dd sounds lovely.

[Frequency]

I managed to sit her down and have a proper chat.

She tells me that out of their group of five 2 are on FSM and do get £2.40 a day to spend, but only at lunch and not breakfast or break time. She admitted lying because she thought she'd get into trouble for buying her friends food when they have their own money.

One of her friends gets £25 a week to spend on food at school, this is girl she meets for breakfast. The other girl gets dinner money the same way DC1 does, when her account is low, her mum tops it up. This is the girl she bought a whole lunch for. She'd forgotten to ask her mum to top up her account and couldn't get hold of her by phone. She bought DC1 breakfast the next day (her online account does show that she did not buy breakfast the following day)

The £25 a week girl also buys cakes for the FSM girls. She started buying them before DC1. They never asked her to, she just did. She always has, ever since DCC1 started sitting with them in the canteen. DC1 just copied because everyone likes this girl, not just because she buys them cakes, but because she is, in DC1's words "a really nice person" and she wanted to be a really nice person too.

There are days when the FSM girls don't get cake off DC1 or her friend and they never ask, expect or look upset when they don't get cake. DC1 mainly offers on days where she is with just one of the FSM friends because she feels mean asking them to queue up with her at the canteen when they cannot buy anything. She doesn't think it's a nice thing to do and didn't think I'd really mind her buying a few extra cakes.

The day she bought breakfast she is the first time her friend has mentioned being hungry, she doesn't think she goes without breakfast at home very often. She'd told them her mum had to pay back some money she borrowed and didn't have enough to buy much food that week, so they'd run out before she got paid again. She didn't ask for breakfast, she just looked upset and when DC1 asked why she said she was hungry and her mum had been very upset because they'd ran out of food, so she was upset. The youngest siblings had tinned soup without bread, but she didn't want soup for breakfast. She texted her mum from DC1's phone to say she'd had breakfast to stop her being upset and the mum replied that she'd pay DC1 back when she could, but hasn't as yet.

I've talked to her about the quantity of sugar she is consuming and she understands that cake sometimes is okay, cake after breakfast, cake for snacks and cake for lunch is a bit much, but she's never had enough money to buy cakes before now and went a bit mad. She's going to think about other things she could buy or take in for snacks.

She didn't want to tell her dad exactly what had been going on because she didn't want to have to admit to lying to me. He is stricter than me and she thinks he'd have taken her phone away.

I feel a bit happier now I know that she's not being asked and doesn't feel she has to buy cake for them, but I still think I'll talk to the school and ask them to keep an eye on it.

I talked about buying friendships and she insists that's not what she is doing, she just wants to be nice to her friends. They were her friends before she started buying them cakes and she thinks they'd still be friends if she stopped buying them cakes. We also had a chat about lying and she's not going to lose her phone but understands that if she lies again I will not put her next top up on.

I'm really shocked, though sadly not surprised, that people with young children get sanctioned. Bastard tories indeed.

[HortonWho]

The worrying issue for me, OP, is why your daughter didn't learn from her bullying experience and is potentially repeating the pattern so soon again.

[composemail]

I work but was asking advise recently. I was told once dd is thirteen if I was a job seeker I would have to chose a job with any hours at all.
DD has Dyspraxia which affects her maturity but also has processing difficulties , little sense of danger and is a very very young for her age. I have left her for an hour and she had a panic attack and text me over a hundred times.
Last week she tried to make food by putting a full metal unopened tin in microwave for ten minutes but I was told I would be sanctioned if I didn't work any hours day or night once she's thirteen.

[composemail]

According to Gingerbread those on Income Support can and have been sanctioned www.gingerbread.org.uk/news/251/income-support-sanctions-risk

[BalthazarImpresario]

My son recently was buying cakes and snacks and the school called us about it (we can see balance but not items) the upshot is he no longer has dinner money. He either takes a sarnie or he has nothing. I'm not bank rolling this or enabling others potentially bullying behaviour.

[TreadSoftlyOnMyDreams]

it might be better to sit your daughter down and have a long conversation with her.

a) you are concerned following previous episodes, she just needs to insist on boundaries and come to you if she feels uncomfortable in any way. I think you have to trust her to some extent not to let herself get back into a similar situation by stealth [not that it was ever her fault obv in the first place - but that she needs to learn to assert her rights over her own lunch allowance]

b) ask if she is concerned that her friend doesn't get enough to eat. If she wants to help her then cake is not the answer

c) have a conversation about how much cake she is eating.

[Frequency]

She has a baby, afaik, assuming it's the same child, I'm sure DC1 said she has a baby sister. So I assume she's on income support. Can you get sanctioned on IS?

These friends are all fairly new, I don't really know them. I know one of the girls is not allowed to call for DC1 because she lives too far away, so her parents at least seem responsible.

I should have time to sit her down tonight and have a proper chat about what's been going on. She doesn't seem to have bought double of anything this week, so it appears to be sporadic giving, rather than her constantly feeding her mates cake. She still seems to be eating a shocking amount of cake though.

The other girls not getting enough at home never entered my head. I was aware that food banks were on rise and things weren't great for people on benefits, but it possibly happening so close to home is a bit shocking. I feel a bit naive now.

I don't have a great job myself, but am fortunate that I have a good relationship with their dad and he pays maintenance for them and helps out with clothing them/paying for activities, plus ex-MIL cannot visit them as often as she'd like due to ill health/distance so she sends them food instead, albeit mainly crisps and sweets and chicken nuggets but it helps. I hadn't thought outside of my own little bubble I don't know many people on out of work benefits and none well enough for them to be telling me the ins and outs of their finances. I really did just think she must've forgotten to buy cereal/bread the night before like I occasionally do.

[wasonthelist]

When did we start teaching kids they need to give their fingerprints for food?

[composemail]

I would mention it to school in confidence.if she isn't buying friendship they need help.
Its a sad state of affairs but children are going hungry in the UK
Some families lifes are chaotic
Some benefit sanctions are ridiculous
Some families on benefits end up in debt waiting for benefits to be sorted.

I worry what will happen to those sanctioned when universal credit is the norm and child tax credit isn't at least separate.

As a ex ta I've dealt with kids who's only meal has been the free school one. I have bought food as have teachers.

Bastard tories

[DontMindMe1]

from my own experiences frequency, i would suggest that you do voice your concerns to school staff. you may be the only adult who has spoken up for her (albeit unknowingly to the dc) and set the ball rolling to give her some much needed support and consideration. her mum won't get into trouble, i think the staff will first speak to the dc and find out what's happening. i'm not sure what they are able to do if it transpires she doesn't get enough to eat at home but i'm fairly sure they will provide her mum with support rather than punish her.

[Frequency]

She is a lovely girl, Amazon, I'm very proud of her.

I'd actually never considered that one/both of the girls might be going without at home. I know DC1 told me that she'd bought breakfast for the girl because she was very hungry and her mum had run out of food but I really didn't think much of it. We run of food because I'm lazy/disorganised, I just give them a couple of quid to buy breakfast on the way to school, I assumed the mum had just forgot to go to the shops.

I'll admit I don't much about unemployment benefits these days, how hard it is or how easy/regular running out of food would be. I know she has a baby so would get income support wouldn't sh

I hope that's not the case, she only lives a few blocks away from the children's father. People in the uk, in 2015 should not be struggling to make sure their children get breakfast.

I'm not sure whether to mention this to the school now? I don't want to cause the woman any trouble if it was a one off but on the other hand if it's happening regularly maybe she needs some more support or is not claiming all she entitled to.

[amazonqueen]

Your Dd sounds like a lovely caring child and from the amount she is spending it doesnt seem as if she is being coersed into buying for several friends.

Maybe one friend really does have little to eat at times despite the fsm amount.
My school had a reunion meet up and a facebook page was set up. Lots of people commented about the old times, favourite teachers and popular kids etc
A couple of people started commenting about how they hated school and it seems as if a dam was burst because the comments became long stories about their schooldays and young lives. Unknown to any friends or teachers these young people had horrible home lives and were able to put on a front most of the time by playing the fool or moody kid act. But they were starving because there was nothing in their houses to eat.One girl fainted through lack of food and lied that she was on her period.
It is heartbreaking reading because everyone who knew these young people would have easily been able to help.They just didnt know.
They look back now and say their experiences have made them stronger and no doubt that is true. But they only needed a friend to recognise they needed subtle help and it would have made so much difference to their schooldays.

[composemail]

Our school doesn't allow buying of two items other than drinks for this reason. In some ways the fingerprint system cuts down on kids taking physical money. In another way I think its bad for them understanding what they are spending. When dd started I toped hers up for a month and she spent it in two weeks buying extras at break times while I was going to work with a cheap pack lunch. That soon stopped!

[choccyp1g]

At our school we have parent pay, and for FSM it gives you up to £2.00 free stuff a day, but only at lunchtime and only for proper food. Bacon buggies or sausage rolls for breakfast or break have to be paid for, even if you don't buy anything else that day. So there is probably not enough cash for them to buy their own treats.
Still sounds like bullying or taking advantage.

[Londonista123]

I think whether or not it's a good idea to bring homemade cakes in depends on whether these girls are really your DDs friends, who DD is offering to help, or simply girls manipulating your daughter for their benefit. I'd start by having your daughter tell them that Mum's been checking the account and she can't buy any treats, repeated once or twice, and see whether there's any change in their approach to your DD. If not, homemade treats (once in a while!) may be a good solution.

[DontMindMe1]

she was very cagey and defensive and wouldn't really discuss it with him other than to claim her friend would have gone hungry if she didn't offer to help. She has made it clear to me and her dad that she is offering, she's not being asked.

Hmmm...i'm not savvy with how FSM work nowadays but i'm getting the feeling they're feeding her a sob story because they think she's a 'softy', and as she doesn't know how much they are allocated she's falling for it. Even in my day the FSM voucher paid for a decent 'basic' lunch of main, dessert and drink. I think you should find out from the advisor what the daily minimum allowance is on FSM and make your dd aware of it so she knows for herself - so next time they try the 'don't have enough' line she can put them straight.

i have no doubt that on FSM they can buy a basic lunch - they just want 'extras' or 'treats', which is understandable but they need to learn that they cannot demand those from your dd nor can they 'expect' them.

[MyrtleMoaning]

No! Do NOT start making her cakes to take in.

Your DD needs to learn that friends are made, not bought. Or rather, this current set of friends need to.

[DontMindMe1]

OP - i think you're dd is a beautiful soul for having such compassion for others (and at her age too) - and you can tell her i said that

She sounds like a lovely person and a wonderful friend to have and is also strong enough to say 'no' and stick to it. I'm seeing aspects of myself in your dd, and from my experience i just want to say that you need to keep a very close eye on this- esp given the bullying.

i found that whilst friends were happy to accept my love of sharing with them - some of them turned very nasty and aggressive when i said no or wasn't able to share. i didn't expect them to reciprocate but even when they could and they knew i could have done with that help - they didn't and some would point blank refuse if i dared to ask. At that age it's easy to end up in a pattern and end up believing that you can only have 'normal' friendships if you are constantly giving. I didn't get support to navigate through those years and it ended up affecting my self esteem and self worth for years and played its part in abusive relationships.

It isn't your responsibility to make sure her friends get enough to eat or 'treats' but i do understand why you don't mind sharing what you can spare. No matter what happens, those kids will always remember 'the kindness of strangers' , and hopefully your and your dd's love and compassion for others less fortunate will rub off on them and they too will want to do the same as they experience life.

Just ensure that she has the support in place to help her if/when her being assertive results in her boundaries being breached/violated by others. Give her some good excuses she can use to easily get out of the situation if it's turning bad, something like "my mum's been checking the account, she doesn't mind me helping when i can but i'm not allowed to go over my budget". That way they're aware that you know and so any funny business from them will backfire on them. It also gets your dd 'off the hook'. Then, as you suggested, do something where she can take in 'treats/food' to share with them - might be a good idea if she could drop your name into somewhere - just something like "guess what my mum got for us all?" - so again they're aware that what's being shared is being done so out of love. hopefully they have it in them to appreciate that and will respect your dd's wishes when she says 'no'.

[Frequency]

Brian, there are 'parent-pupil advisers' pupils meet with them once a month and parents are supposed to make an effort to touch base with them regularly. I missed my last appointment due to illness.

I've made one to see them on Monday morning to discuss this and her general anxiety around friendship. They are aware of the bullying in her last school.

£12.50 is the minimum to top up now.

[MyrtleMoaning]

You can only top up the account by a minimum amount - last year, when DD2 was at her only school, it was £10, sounds like it's gone up this year. I think you need to get the school involved, OP.

[BrianButterfield]

I would tell the school - is there a house/year tutor/learning mentor person? I know if our pastoral team was aware of something like this they would find a way to sneakily monitor it without the child knowing - having a general message sent out to all form tutors that students should t buy for others on their own card, or doing a casual patrol through the canteen at break times.

[KitZacJak]

Why not just allocate the same amount that people of FSMs have to your daughter so she just has enough to buy lunch then she is no different to the others. I only give my son enough to buy lunch on certain days and on others I make a packed lunch. He is not allowed to buy extra stuff as its expensive and unhealthy (am I am not made of money)!

[Frequency]

She told me only 1 friend on FSM was there. They got a sausage bun each and a juice each and she bought the water to keep in her bag for herself.

I know she meets other friends at school for breakfast who are not on FSM. These friends are all new. I've only met one of them (one of the FSM friends) she's been on the outskirts of the group since mid last year but has slowly been getting closer to them. She doesn't see any of them outside of school as yet but one girl did call for her last weekend but she wasn't in, she has a friend from primary school she sees on weekends. She went to a different secondary because of the bullying and struggled a lot to make new friends.

I was at work last night so didn't have time to discuss this in depth with her, I could only call her on my break, but did email her dad when I realised what had been going on. He had a chat with her but says she was very cagey and defensive and wouldn't really discuss it with him other than to claim her friend would have gone hungry if she didn't offer to help. She has made it clear to me and her dad that she is offering, she's not being asked.

I haven't asked her if others are also buying for these two girls or what she thinks would happen if she didn't offer one day, but will make a point to.

I can only top her account up by £12.50 at a time and without buying for friends she spends more than this, so I can't really limit her money without cutting it right down to £12.50.

[MyrtleMoaning]

DD2 has FSM, her last school used ParentPay. The FSM allocation was paid in daily, £2.20 a day. What her friends have told her about random payments is rubbish. She is being taken advantage of - 2 sausage buns, 2 orange juices, and a water? That sounds suspiciously like the friends are getting a sausage bun and orange for breakfast, and your DD got water.