To say thank fuck for Nicola Sturgeon

[Chippednailvarnish]

I can't stand her anti English stance, but at least one political leader is doing something for the refugees...

[Hamiltoes]

What part of anything I said equates to me not giving a fuck about children with special needs or struggling families

I have 2 children who I raise myself, work in a career where women have to fight for things male colleagues are handed on a silver platter, and have just finished a HND in the evenings and about to embark on a degree. Pretty much the definion of struggling so don't try to tell me I talk shite about struggling from your high horse.

[ALassUnparalleled]

I am sure being required to sing: 'Scotland my Country and my land of Birth' at almost all assemblies, being 'able write a poem in Gaelic', and to 'discuss the First World War from the perspective of Crofters in Shetland' will be of more use to him, in either profession, than a good solidgrounding in maths and English

No it wasn't a sarcastic comment. It's a statement of what is being taught.It's because certain true Scotspersons still hold a grudge about the Clearances and attribute an importance to crofting and Gaelic neither deserve- including foisting Gaelic place names on parts of Scotland which never spoke Gaelic.

The analysis of the First World War from the point of the crofters is ridiculous. There's not a town or village in Scotland which did not lose men. Ordinary working men, tenant farmers and the sons of "the big hoose". They would have done better reading Lewis Grassington Gibbons' Sunset Song for an analysis of the impact of WW1.


And about Scotland's economy, when those with a 34% pass in HIgher Maths go looking for global work.

Or even more scarily start work here in any job where a knowledge of maths is actually needed.

[QueenLaBeefah]

Today 12:36 RJnomaaaaaargh

I cannot express my disgust at the word "feckless" deeply enough. And both of you used it.


I hope that wasn't aimed at me - I merely used that word to highlight how offensive Hamiltoes was for using it. I find that term abhorrent and very bothering.

[QueenLaBeefah]

Hamiltoes - teenagers are never off the fucking Internet. It is the single biggest distraction to learning there is. You talk pure shite and clearly couldn't give a stuff about children with special needs or struggling families as they always had a crap time at school.
SNP seems to have a race to the bottom agenda.

[RJnomaaaaaargh]

I cannot express my disgust at the word "feckless" deeply enough. And both of you used it.

There are a tiny time percentage of parents who may not care but in general 99.9 percent WANT to be good parents and want to do well for their children.

[RJnomaaaaaargh]

But the snp are on power in Scotland, have been for much longer than the Tories nationally, and are responsible for education. At some point they have to be accountable for the way they use or misuse that responsibility.

They can't continuously bleat about how a big boy did it and ran away.

[Hamiltoes]

To add, problems so deeply entwined in this country like the ones mentioned above aren't something thats going to be fixed in 5 years, or even 10. The generation having children now are the same generation who were allowed to leave school with absolutely nothing and no life skills what so ever. At least when I was due to leave the programs for getting these kids SOMETHING (even work experience in the bakers across the street) had started.

And there you have it, while I agree that maths is definitely an example of where you have to learn at a set pace and structure, getting children exceited about learning themselves using their own means (INTERNET!) is the way we have to go if we ever want to break the cycle and ensure no child is left behind because of the parents curcumstances or skills.

[QueenLaBeefah]

Feckless? Jeezo, now using Tory rhetoric!

[Roseformeplease]

My children won't fail Maths because of the SHIT department in my school. I have enough money and determination to find, and fund, extra help. They will be fine. They are the lucky ones - 2 parents, 2 jobs, both graduates so wanting the same for our kids as we have.

But, many, many others can't afford help. Think nothing of kids gaming 4-5 hours a night. Can't / Won't come to parents' night. These kids are being failed twice, by their parents (although the parents often have far more to worry about than just Maths) and by the school.

These are the kids being failed.

Who speaks up for them?

[Hamiltoes]

The reply was aimed at the people on this thread moaning about THEIR childs education. As I said, the lowering standards of literacy and numeracy seen here AND below the border are most likely due to those things!!

Perhaps the single parent working 3 PT jobs with no time to read to their children would have more time if the tories weren't busy dismantiling the tax credits system?

Perhaps those feckless parents wouldn't have been so feckless if there was actual oppertunity for them when they left school (under previous Lab/ Tory gov).

My argument is with those who are saying THEIR own childrens education isn't good enough and blaming it specifically on the SNP.

[TheNewStatesman]

"So sick of the attitude that the school is the be all and end all of the childs education. DD4 went to nursery in arguably one of the most run-down disadvantaged areas in the city with a high ratio of non-english speaking children and came out confident, more independent and ready to learn. If you're child is in Pwhatever and can't read a clockface, buy them a bloody watch and practice it with them. Want to know what reading level your child is at? Sit them down and read a fucking book with them. Worried they don't get enough homework? Ask them what they learned at school today and engage them in discussion. "

You don't get it, do you?

Most of the people voicing concerns on this thread ARE DOING THESE THINGS.

But we are concerned about the fate of the kids who don't have this kind of support at home--because their parents don't speak English, because their parents are suffering from chronic health problems or serious personal difficulties, because they have one single parent who is working three part-time jobs to make ends meet, because they have feckless parents who don't care. Kids with these kinds of home life also deserve to have the chance to learn. The school needs to be teaching them.

We pay schools with tax money because we expect them to educate--not just to waffle around with the kids for hours on end while parents (and tutors) end up having to do the real education at home.

[RJnomaaaaaargh]

Children like my dd that should read. My dad is not a child

[ClearBlueWater]

Yes.
I would like the Curriculum to focus more on ensuring all children leave primary school with a good understanding of Maths and Literacy and less time was spent on politically motivated learning.
Less than 1% of Scottish people use Gaelic - what is the point exactly?
why not use that time to teach children how to read and write in their Country's modern international language?
I'd be fine with a Gaelic poem class if my children's classes were able to produce a poem in English too - but they are not.

[RJnomaaaaaargh]

I'm all for child led (or any learner centred) educational practice but there are some things which it just does not work for. One is maths; it's a linear learning process and the results of cfe approaches to math is being seen in the national literacy/numeracy survey which shows a rising attainment gap between the most deprived and the most well off children and young people.

I think the resulting shocking display on the nat 5 life skills maths is linked to that.'
I'm a learning and development specialist and I'm concerned about the practicality of learner led activity in classes of 30.

Children like my dad who are academically very able, have good parental support and access to additional resources eg tutoring will be fine.

But as the snp rhetoric is about improving life chances for those who are most in need and are thus most likely to come from families where they do not have the same parental support, hamiltoes argument up there is just shit.

Read a ducking book?? What about the parents the adult literacy service I manage supports? With the greatest will in the world they can't provide that sort of support. And those kids are falling drastically through the gaps and it's getting worse. The stats support it getting worse.

The Scottish governments answer to the numeracy issue is to create more posts at education Scotland to sort it out. I despair.

[Hamiltoes]

In that case I can see why you think your DCs needs for education would be better met south of the border.

However, I was under the impression what Gove has done down there has left teachers stressed to the hilt, and pupils not too far behind them with levels of anxiety higher than ever before.

I don't really want to get into what I personally think is wrong with the education system in England, I've already been told to shut the fuck up and would likely be fighting a battle I couldn't win, all I'm saying is quite clearly outside of MN there are many many people who actually quite like the CofE and think the SNP, and NS are overall doing a good job in gov. Its why they win elections

[dontrunwithscissors]

I am sure being required to sing: 'Scotland my Country and my land of Birth' at almost all assemblies, being 'able write a poem in Gaelic', and to 'discuss the First World War from the perspective of Crofters in Shetland' will be of more use to him, in either profession, than a good solid grounding in maths and English... Ditto my Dd.

Sorry, I'm confused. Is this meant to be a sarcastic comment?

[ClearBlueWater]

Erm, the SQA should ensure that the Questions are covered by the curriculum and are at an appropriate level of difficulty so they don't have to piss around altering pass marks to 34% to cover up another cock-up?

What I'd like the SNP to do about ds?
Well, given he has recognised learning difficulties, which across the Border would mean he'd have SfL, a Learning Plan and potentially a differentiated curriculum I'd like them to ensure that this would be standard in Scotland too, so he doesn't potentially have to leave his 'land of birth' / home / friends etc.

I'd like his class of 32 to ALL be able to add/subtract/multiply and divide by the age of 11, not a small number of them.

Why is this available to him, as a disabled learner, in England but not Scotland - HIS country?

Yy to poverty and austerity.
But a poor child can still learn in school.
Even a well off one cant if it's not being taught.

Which makes it even more important that ALL children in Scotland have the same chances - you know, the equal society that SNP bang on about - the gap is WIDENING under the SNP - specifically the education gap.

[ClearBlueWater]

Sorry Queen my error about the pass rate. 34%. Thanks.x

pretty - that is heartening. to hear. I
know that the theory of CfE is not 'all bad' by any means.
Being able to do 'topic work' across the curriculum at primary level is great.
Teachers not being totally hamstrung by endless paperwork from tests as in parts of England atm, is sensible.

But:

I remember when CfE came in.
My ds godmother is a teacher.
She said: 'for a good teacher/school, it is what has always happened, unofficially, but for a poor/lazy one, it is a disaster waiting to happen as there is so little checking or accountability, especially for Literacy and Numeracy.
In our case, with one SEN and one NT child, that is what has happened for both of them, by degrees, in an awful school / council area.
I sit on my school's Parent Council.
I have lots of contacts in the Education Dept at the local Council and I hear and see what is happening and it is not good at ALL.

THAT is what is being raised by those concerned about the widening gap in attainment in Scotland.

It is the lack of accountability and the continual blaming of Westminster, for a system that has been fully devolved for YEARS.

[Hamiltoes]

I never said that child is not being let down, of course he is! I'm just perplexed as to what you want the SNP to do about it specifically, that other govs have not been able to achieve?

What would Labour do better? I have a Lab council and the only thing they seem to do well is spend 10x more money than they say they will on fucking idiotic projects that nobody wants. The definition of incompetence.

I'm not trying to claim there is no fault with the current education system, but standards of literacy have fallen accross the border too. Would it be so inconceivable that perhaps this is down to other factors? Such as maybe austerity? The "toxic childhood" theory. Benefits sanctions, benefits cuts, bedroom tax??? You don't think there is a link between lower standards of living and rising illiteracy?

[prettybird]

And regarding the "low" pass mark for the Maths Higher, I seem to recall a thread on Scotsnet where people were wailing about how unfairly difficult the exam had been and had been reassured by others that had said the pass mark would be adjusted

It would appear the SQA can't win either way

FWIW, ds' Maths teacher (Head of Maths) apparently said that the "difficult" question wasn't actually that difficult and that his pupils had been able to answer it.

[ClearBlueWater]

My son has also been assessed as gifted, (IQ through the roof) so I hope he wont be 'leaving at 14' but will be able to fulfill his potential whether that be as a joiner or a surgeon.

I am sure being required to sing: 'Scotland my Country and my land of Birth' at almost all assemblies, being 'able write a poem in Gaelic', and to 'discuss the First World War from the perspective of Crofters in Shetland' will be of more use to him, in either profession, than a good solid grounding in maths and English... Ditto my Dd.

It's not all about the budget (which is underspent in some areas) it is about attitude and valuing education over a highly politicised curriculum. Scottish education used to be the envy of the world ('a man o' pairts'). Not any more.

Queen NS is re-introducing standardised testing because so many official bodies are hugely concerned about the plummeting standards in Primaries and she knows there is a big problem which will follow through to High School and onwards.

[QueenLaBeefah]

So if a child has any kind of special needs they shouldn't expect to succeed at school because they wouldn't have done 20 yrs ago?

[prettybird]

I'll post a longer reply when I'm actually on a laptop rather than my phone but I just wanted to say I'm happy with the education that my ds is getting under the CfE and at a state school. He's now in S4 and on course to get 8 Nat 5s and one Nat 4.

The teaching he got at primary school barely changed when CfE came in as that was the way that they had always taught (it's a school that had been an exemplar of best practice for multi-language teaching as it has a high proportion of EAL kids, and "team teaching" was normal practice to it). He had an excellent foundation when he started secondary including French, the subject I had been sniffy about as I have a degree in it

[QueenLaBeefah]

The pass rate was 34% not 43%.