"The meaning of mongol"

[ArsenicSoup]

On Radio 4 now (and doubtless available on iplayer later)

AIBU to think this should be played in every secondary classroom?

[CattyCatCat]

All I hear lately is 'I'm going to mong out' or 'you mong' or 'there's a lot of mong about/out there'. It really fucks me off as all are offensive phrases, imo. These remarks are coming from adults and teens. Especially on Facebook. God only knows how the term 'Mong' has come to be so widely used with no apparent embarrassment on their user's part.

[itiswhatitiswhatitis]

Well I dislike the term label in this context, my child has a diagnosis not a label and yes there is a difference. People use the term label quite disrespectfully all the time, usually combined with knobbish air quotes that suggest the condition they are referring to is not real or valid in someway.

[newyorkminute]

DS2 has Down's Syndrome. "Down's Syndrome people/boy/girl" makes me so sad. You wouldn't call a child with cancer "cancer boy" and it feels the same to me, yet I hear it weekly, including from education professionals. There is a great campaign that I would strongly recommend Losethelabel. DS is 16 months and I have yet to hear mong used but am fully aware that he is likely to face this kind of language.

[DoraGora]

The Radio 4 programme does say that even in Langdon Down's time, several scientists were writing supposedly mongoloid, because they didn't believe in his classification. And, later on, with the discovery of the extra chromosome, it was shown to be false. This wouldn't the the first time that leading scientists have put awful notions of race into the public arena. I gather, that once, awful scientific theories were all the rage.

[Gruntfuttock]

diddl "I had thought the word had been used because of a supposed similarity of features. Never realised it was possibly also because they were also thought to be considered "an earlier state of humanity""

Same here. That was very shocking.

[DoraGora]

Presumably, if anyone is to be blamed for this dreadful and racist classification, it's the doctor John Langdon Down, who invented it. He linked the condition with the race on purpose. Language moves on. So, I'm guessing that, in time, today's racist insult will disappear and something equally appalling will take its place. I'm guessing that people who use the expression are meaning to be offensive and that the origin of the term means very little to them.

[Jux]

I grew up next door to a boy with Down's Syndrome. This was back in the 60s. We all used mongol then, but by the 70s we had all stopped.

I'm not at all surprised that people younger than I had no idea. Why would they? I wouldn't condemn people who used the term as it is used these days, but would make sure I told them about it's origins. Plain ignorance is OK and can be changed easily enough. Wilfull ignorance is tougher.

[ChickenMe]

Cringe that people use words like this.
An ex-colleague used to use the term "flids" about people with disabilities. And people would laugh. I had to say something.
My SIL says paki and I'm the only one who picks her up on it. She still says it tho! Even my 90-something nan knows not to say that. It's fucking cringe and purposely ignorant.
I think it makes people look cheap and nasty using such terminology.

[diddl]

That article!

I had thought the word had been used because of a supposed similarity of features.

Never realised it was possibly also because they were also thought to be considered "an earlier state of humanity"

[cardamomginger]

Just read the article. Bloody hell . I knew the word was vile and offensive to use to refer to people with that particular genetic condition. But I just hadn't jointed the dots to realise that is profoundly racist as well.

Nice. Very, very nice.

[Greyhound]

I remember feeling appalled when a woman at the school gates said that she didn't want her child, whom she considered to be of superior intellect, to be grouped amongst the "mongs" in his class.

[Hairylegs47]

I'm guilty of this, I didn't realise, I just didn't connect the dots. I asked someone - my now DH - what it meant and I caught on when he pulled a face. This was nearly 20 years ago! I challenge it now when I hear it.
When I was young folk used the awful word for cerebral palsy, they used to get a quick lesson from me. My DC used to be so embarrassed when I did, but they never used it in my ear shot.

[nooka]

Greyhound I think that probably is still a reference to downs syndrome, given that 'mong' is not really very close to mogodon (wouldn't it be 'mog' 'mogged'?) and that it appears to have crept into slang use for being stoned or drunk and is highly likely to refer to the perception that those who are for some reason out of it resemble someone with learning disabilities.

[nooka]

It's Down Syndrome people that sounds bad Bulbasaur. People don't say 'my down's syndrome child', 'my down's syndrome sister' etc. Partly because the grammar doesn't work but mostly because it's important to put the person before the disability - otherwise it sounds as if they are defined by their disability. Especially I think with something like Down's Syndrome because people can have such characteristic visible differences, and so are I think particularly othered. For example it's really important for my sister that family in particular talk about the things her daughter has in common with her cousins, that she is a member of the family first and has Down's Syndrome after IYSWIM.

[Greyhound]

I think "Mong" can sometimes be used to describe being under an influence of mogadon.

If used to refer to people with DS, then is extremely offensive :(

[AdoraBell]

I've never used it myself and got bullied in school for being angry when other people used it and refusing To laugh along with "everyone". This was in the 70's.

will read the link when I'm less tired

[Bulbasaur]

Oh go on I'll bite. 'Respectful label'? 'Down Syndrome People'?

Label: A descriptive term; an epithet. There's nothing disrespectful about the word label. I think it's pretty clear there was no disrespect intended in the rest of my post either.

But you know, you're always welcome to hone in on one part of my post to get righteously outraged and "offended" to feel like a better person.

If you wanted a hint: The main point of my post was that Mong or Mongoloid was just as offensive as the word retard.

I hope this clears things up. :)

[Iggi999]

I don't think that's right Manic as there's a different reason why "disabled" comes before "people" that doesn't apply to any particular disability, iyswim.

[UnicornsAndGlitter]

I've chided a few people for using the word and they have been, without fail, horrified when they heard what the word actually meant. All thought it referred to being stoned and hadn't thought much further.

I don't think the etymology is commonly known. Although more are aware since Ricky Gervais, I only knew as I found a book referring to mongoloid children in my teens and asked my mum what it meant. I go for education first, hopefully it gets people thinking about the words they use more.

[FreakinScaryCaaw]

People with Down's Syndrome.

[manicinsomniac]

Bulbasaur could be correct with 'downs syndrome people'. It sounds wrong but as disabled people is now correct and people with disabilities is wrong (until the next changearound that is!!) then it makes sense that downs syndrome people is right and people with downs syndrome is wrong.

I'll admit to not knowing the origin of mong or mongaloid. I know it's derogatory but I'm not sure why. I've always assumed it is drawing a parallel between facial features in downs syndrome and Mongolians but I'm not sure there's much resemblance so that's probably wrong!

[itiswhatitiswhatitis]

Oh go on I'll bite. 'Respectful label'? 'Down Syndrome People'?

[FreakinScaryCaaw]

So, people are surprised at the origin of the word? I thought it was common knowledge?

I hate it. Local to where I'm living now, they say 'I'm getting monged', meaning getting mortally drunk. Awful. I'm not from this area and was so shocked when I heard it. Those who say it think it's ok.

[treesntrees]

Or even "people with Downs Syndrome"

[treesntrees]

Or even "people with Downs Syndrome"