To think that early childhood is for having fun, not being academically hothoused?

[bronya]

I know people who are talking earnestly about how many shapes their child can recognise, how far towards twenty they can count, etc etc - aged 19 months. There was a whole discussion at toddler group this morning about the best structured activities to use to teach a child maths - aged two. It just seems a shame to be pushing a child so young. Surely this is the one time in their lives where they can follow their own interests, enjoy life without any pressure and just have fun?

So - AIBU to take my toddler to the park, on nature walks with the dog, to let him play outside on the bike, or with his football if he wants to? To follow his interests (within reason) and just let him be a child? Sometimes I feel I'm the only one who isn't concerned with x hours of 'academic learning' each day!!

[MiddletonPink]

Some people are just like that. As long as the child is having fun whilst learning and they are allowed to "jump in puddles" at other times I don't see a problem.

Annoying yes but not really doing any harm.

[grannytomine]

A young mum was telling me about her plans to return to work. She was judging nurseries on the academic programme. Her little one was 8 months old.

[grannytomine]

I have four,now grown up, children. Children like different things, I have one who was brilliant at maths, first class degree from a top university, one who loved baking when he was pre school, two of them sports mad and played at county level. One is very musical and plays and sings well. There is nothing wrong with children doing stuff, their stuff, I think the OPs point is the earnest parents planning how to teach 2 year old maths, this isn't about children who like counting it is about parents feeling 2 year olds need to know maths. If children want to count that is great, I am all for supporting children in what they want to learn but surely not every child is mad about counting and if they are and that is such a good thing then why are British children doing so badly at maths when they are older?

At my local primary children can now do a course in the school holidays to learn to ride a bike. No, not safety training for cycling proficiency but learning to ride a bike. I heard of a course to toilet train your children, they were collected and taken away for the day with a supply of pants and came back that night toilet trained. I can't believe that we now live in a world where people pay for these courses and spend their time teaching two year olds maths. Maybe well educated mothers feel these mundane tasks are beneath them and maths is OK. Talking to children is wonderful but I think there are lots of things to talk about, just talking about colours or numbers as that is educational must get boring. I am not saying that is what people on here do but yes some people do hot house 2 year olds. I remember coming out of a parents evening when a mother with two children the same age as mine, 6 and 4, told me she was giving up on the older one as he was hopeless, she was just going to concentrate on his sister as she had potential. Honestly written off at 6 and the sad thing is he was a bright little boy but wasn't as interested in reading as his sister so he was a write off.

I know reception teachers who tell me what a big problem kids starting school in nappies is now. I honestly can't remember a child starting school in nappies when I was a kid or when my kids started school.

When I was a young mum I remember my MIL telling me in her day babies were toilet trained at 6 weeks, I thought she was mad. Maybe young mums think I am mad but I suppose priorities change.

Maybe in a few years people will be bragging that their child can use a toilet or tie their shoe laces or ride a bike. Things tend to go in circles.

[WalkingInMemphis]

I don't blame you for the giggle I do know it sounds odd...ds1 is...'unique' at the best of times!

I do disagree with this though - I guess to me the thing that would bother me in terms of the learnt approval thing, is why he wants you to set and mark problems for him. That shows the limits of our education system, I think. That children so young are into having "work" marked

For ds, I think me marking his sums is still all about the maths. He wants to count them up - how many right, how many wrong. He then changes it to a percentage of 'right' and percentage of 'wrong' and doesn't seem that concerned by the actual results - it's mainly just another way for him to have a number he's able to play with and manipulate iyswim? If there's a number in something, in anything, he'll latch on.

[EverythingsRunningAway]

Walking, it seems impossible to me that your own love of and ability at maths hasn't influenced your son.

And that's a great thing - it sounds like he has found, at quite a young age, something he has a great talent for. Cool for him. And for you to share it with him.

I did have a (kind) giggle at your first description of him first of all finding your old maths books, and then you just showing him how to do quadratic equations. As if either of those things was a typical event in most homes

I was never sneering at the idea that children might be interested in maths. Algebra is totally brilliant, why wouldn't a six year old want to spend his time doing it?

I guess to me the thing that would bother me in terms of the learnt approval thing, is why he wants you to set and mark problems for him. That shows the limits of our education system, I think. That children so young are into having "work" marked.

Algebra is so powerful, what are the other things he could be doing with it?

But then, he's enjoying himself, so who cares, really?

[EverythingsRunningAway]

DS also rolled objects and made them spin ad infinitum and I don't think he got much subliminal approval for that.

:) Probably he didn't, but when you think about it, there's every bit as much learning (and maths!) in rolling and spinning as there is in counting.

Maybe the thing is to encourage the non-typical interests they show, the ones that seem a little more independently arrived at?

I don't know.

And identifying and making patterns is something human brains are very good at, so I am definitely not arguing that patterns are boring.

I just think with maths in particular, the early focus is on the most boring stuff. Imagine if they went to school and did rolling and spinning instead of the "story" of 3? (Zzzzz).

[amothersplaceisinthewrong]

At two my son said about six words. He however could work out how many building blocks it would take to enable himself to climb onto the table, up to the stairgate....and he had mastered all those bloody cupboard locks DH so painstakingly put on all the kitchen couboards.

[WalkingInMemphis]

Your argument is similar to the gender argument Everything. Even when we think we haven't taught children which colour toys they 'should' play with they somehow absorb it from the environment and the general background of peer behaviour and adult response

I do think that this ^ is a valid point...to an extent.

Ds1 for instance and his love of maths. I can definitely, hand-on-heart say I have never strived to teach him numbers, counting, maths. Never, ever, sat him down and encouraged him to learn it or made an effort to teach it - I've only taught him things (like the Algebra) when he's begged asked me to. BUT...I myself am very mathematically minded, and I enjoy it. I did A Level maths. Before I decided Uni wasn't my thing I was going to do a degree in it.

Maybe subconsciously I did show approval to ds1 when he was drawing his little circles at age two in order to 'count' his bricks. Which then fuelled his desire to do more. Maybe, from the way I act and talk, the things I do, ds1 has picked up on the mathematical way my brain works...and so on.

Or maybe it's genetic? I'm a fairly able mathematician, so maybe it's just that...the whole nature/nurture debate I suppose.

Either way...it's not hothousing. And however much you might subconsciously show your approval for a certain behaviour in a small child, I don't think any amount of subconscious approval would encourage a 6 year old to forgo the offer of a PS3 hour with daddy because he desperately wants to sit and do algebra. There has to be natural enjoyment/pleasure there, and I have no doubt that ds1 loves it as it's completely driven by him.

[ZeViteVitchofCwismas]

It's just normal parenting to teach them basic shapes and colours by the time they start school, surely

Of course, but getting stressed when they are not picking it up is not normal in my opinon. Or maybe normal but not right.

[morethanpotatoprints]

I have found that even the most reluctant learner has found a love of learning through play.
I have seen and heard about it and it works.
If learning takes place in a fun way because parents want their children to be educated and the children thrive like this, that's fine and hardly hothousing.
If the child is repeating numbers as you count ingredients, finding out how scales work, they are learning. They have inquisitive minds and want to learn

[ElkTheory]

Well, I wouldn't classify learning shapes and colours as academic hothousing. Most children want to learn these things and enjoy themselves along the way. It's fun for the children and (usually) for the parents too.

Of course, I'm not talking about drilling flashcards or sitting a 2-year-old down for a formal academic maths lesson. That is just insane.

Some parents do become quite over-invested in trying to turn their children into miniature adults. A friend of mine went to an open day for a pre-school and one of the other parents seriously asked how the school taught "time management skills" to the 3-year-olds.

[CharlesRyder]

Your argument is similar to the gender argument Everything. Even when we think we haven't taught children which colour toys they 'should' play with they somehow absorb it from the environment and the general background of peer behaviour and adult response.

I think your point is valid.

I do think some of their little brains pattern seek to the degree that they find numbers and letters pretty fascinating though. DS also rolled objects and made them spin ad infinitum and I don't think he got much subliminal approval for that.

[indigo18]

Many children really do enjoy such things; Ds was fascinated by letters and sounds and words and at 2 would go round the room 'd for door, w for window, r for rug.....' for hours. He read well by 3 and had an amazing vocabulary. He was not interested in maths. His friend down the road knew all his tables up to about 29 times 29 by four years old; I put it down to his dad being a maths professor. Neither child was 'pushed' to do these things, they just enjoyed them

[EverythingsRunningAway]

It's precisely because I accept that not all 3 year olds are the same that I am suspicious of the fact that so many of them seem to be "naturally" interested in numbers and letters.

Coincidentally the very things their parents most want them to be interested in.

Because being interested in things you will be doing in school before you go to school is a sign of being "advanced" or "ahead" because we do mostly have a very linear mental model of how learning happens.

[Mehitabel6]

Of course some love numbers- they are all different.
What is important is understanding that it really doesn't matter!

[WalkingInMemphis]

I find the idea that 3 year olds naturally love numbers as convincing as the idea that 3 year old girls naturally love glittery crowns

You're not serious? Surely you can accept that not all 3 year olds are the same?

Some 3 year olds do naturally love numbers. As a two year old, all of ds1's games revolved around counting and grouping objects. Even before he knew his numbers he would have a paper and felt tip, a pile of bricks and would sit and move bricks from one pile to another, drawing a circle on his piece of paper for each one he 'counted'.

Now at age 6 his first choice of lazy-Sunday afternoon activity is me writing him a list of algebra equations and then marking his answers.

I get that people will scoff at this and find it difficult to believe, but I can assure you that ds1 was never hot-housed by me. I've supported him, helped him to learn things he found interesting, but everything has been led by him. Wrt algebra, he found one of my old maths A Level text books in a drawer a few months ago, flipped to a page of advanced quadratic equations that caught his eye and begged me to teach him how to do them

So I did (obviously not at A Level standard!) and now algebra is his favourite thing to sit and do.

He also loves swimming, football, nature outings, soft play and lots of 'normal' little boy things if that helps. But he's very, naturally, mathematically minded and it really winds me up that some people have such a sneering attitude of 'Oh but a child could never enjoy such things' - um, yes, some do.

[dashoflime]

Im afraid this is one of those "only on mumsnet" threads for me. Ds is 2.4. He talks a bit. Sometimes words of more than one sylabull. Sometimes more than one word at a time. He does not know any letters or numbers. He knows "more", thats sort of a mathmatical principle right?
Im not sure it is "just part of normal parenting" to teach letters and numbers and shapes. I dont do it. I dont know anyone else who does it. I want to teach Ds to drink out of a cup without spilling it, walk nicely holding my hand and piss in the potty.
I would describe Ds as "mumsnet delayed" A child whose development is "mumsnet delayed" will be months if not years behind the made up achievements of his internet counterparts, yet oddly average compared to his real life peers and a.ok according to the lists in the red book. Its a common condition.

[erin99]

Gosh, we did colours, shapes and animal names but you have to say something to them, don't you? There is only so long you can spend in a park with a preschooler without mentioning that the grass and leaves are green. It's just normal parenting to teach them basic shapes and colours by the time they start school, surely?

[EverythingsRunningAway]

Yes, only teachers know how maths is taught.

It's not something that anyone else can know.

Definitely not the parents of children in primary school.

Or people with Internet access.

[Mintyy]

Yanbu.

People are ridiculous about this, they really are.

I stopped being friends with a woman I had got on very well with at NCT classes and beyond because she put her child into a private school where he had to have an interview, aged 4.

I just thought I could never take her seriously again.

[Expedititition]

And how do you know how maths is taught? Are you a teacher?

[EverythingsRunningAway]

You think this because you haven't had a kid who loved counting! DS was a compulsive counter and even now at 4 sits in the back of the car talking about numbers and doing flipping sums. I have to ask him if we can talk about something else.



Nope - been there :)

"Mommy, I'm going to count to 10,000. Do you think I could?"



That allowed us a learning opportunity about the concept of "a complete waste of time."

I'm being a bit of a smart arse, I know lots of kids love counting.

I just think it is very much influenced by living in a world where knowing numbers is considered a sign of intelligence.

If we taught maths in a less boring way, and focused on the really exciting stuff earlier rather than endless number stuff, I wonder would children still do this?

If we started with simple trigonometry or algebra, would they all go around trying to count to a million?

[Aeroflotgirl]

Their expectations are just so high now. No wonder some kids burn out, he's 2 leave him alone!

[Aeroflotgirl]

Ds is 2.10 his SALT she expects him to sit at still for 15 mins . I told her that's a bit ambitious.

[IShallCallYouSquishy]

My DD likes numbers and letters and will bring me books so we can do them. She also stops at road/street signs and asks what the letters are or will say the ones she knows.

She will run around the park, jump in puddles, go up and down the slide 5million times, refuse to eat her dinner, demand snacks, throw a tantrum having her hair washed, and every other thing a 2.6 yr old does.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.