To think you should probably remove all page three material from newspaper headed for a primary art class?

[LiegeAndLief]

Ds (7) has just confessed to me with much giggling that the newspaper he was using in art today had a "proper photo of a proper naked lady with no clothes on".

I guess it's an easy thing to miss in a pile of papers, but if you were handing a copy of the Sun in to a primary school you'd think you'd remove p3 first....

[Bambambini]

I was at a parent/ child junk modelling day recently for 8/9 yr olds at the school. One boy found a womens health magazine with a naked woman on the front sitting cross legged. They were all giggling and nudging each other and showing it about. Was surprised they were so open about it and all the nudge nudge wink wink shennanigans. Guess it's just a taste of things to come.

[BoomBoomsCousin]

Miaow Who on earth said only the Times or the Guardian should be used? I think people have been saying that soft porn shouldn't be used in school and the culture of acceptance around is damaging. That there is plenty of other damaging stuff too doesn't make it OK to use soft porn in schools, even if you're hard up for materials.

[Givemecaffeine]

BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability you are describing the situation for many, many children of primary school age - children absolutely do feel awkward and self-conscious if they are early or late developers. Everyone yearns to be right in the middle and not early or late. You were not, and every other child worried about puberty changes is not, stupid or shallow. Why on earth some people feel it's OK to throw blatant objectification and degradation of women into the mix at this often stressful time is something I will never understand.

[Nocomet]

That I can understand, I think the one girl in my class who wore a bra was a bit self continuous, but only a bit. She'd have flattened any boy who opened his mouth.

I grew pubic hair before anyone else, we swam, I got teased, I added it to the list of rude comments to ignore. I was used to being teased, they always found something. Breathing was probably a crime.

Sorry, I guess DD1 and I have such thick skin, I forget not everyone else does.

Not that people should have to put up with being bullied and I'm delighted DD1's schools pastoral care at secondary (and in Y5/6 at primary) is streets better than mine.

[BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability]

I don't now, or as a teen particularly (whole load of separate issues then of course!) But when puberty started and i stuck out like a sore thumb amongst all the children, and started getting attention from people older who didnt know how young i was, it wasnt so easy.

I'm possible ASD and have issues with social situations anyway, so being an early developer with that was certainly interesting. Looking back I can see that I had noone to copy to learn how to deal with it, so until other girls started to catch up, I was incredibly uncomfortable.

[Nocomet]

99% of appearance worries are to please/compete with other women and I'm far too lazy to play that game.

[Nocomet]

Yes, I think I would, I just don't do body hang ups. Looks and body imagine are never very high on agenda.

I find it incredibly hard to understand why women care so much what they look like.

IME men are just delighted if a women looks at them twice.

[BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability]

It's nothing to do with "boys are stupid", the point is that someone pointed out something I was uncomfortable with, and they only had the opportunity to do that because there were naked boobs covering the table. Next to the news.

You don't seem to understand that I was a developing 8 year old, two years before my periods started. It's not that rare now. If I was a late developer, a 14 year old, two years before starting my periods at 16, would you be arguing about me being "daft" to be upset about someone commenting negatively on my body?

[Toadinthehole]

Let it be said softly, but some of the boys won't welcome the accidental intrusion of Page 3 into their lessons either. It will embarrass some of them and wierd them out.

[Creeping]

"But long words and feminism doesn't solve a problem"

Actually, recognising your own sexist beliefs (whether your male or female; women are not immune to a sexist culture!) is part of the solution. Feminist discourse is making people aware of the inequality between the sexes and is in my opinion therefore definitely part of the solution.

"Pack status point scoring" is something that all teenagers have to deal with, it's called peer pressure. Resisting peer pressure is something that comes with confidence and age. Peer pressure per se is not a feminist issue, except when girls are specifically pressed to look and behave in a way that will hold them back and is not asked from boys. Now where does the idea that girls should look and behave in a certain way come from do you think? They make that up all by themselves? I can't just blame the 13, 14, 15, 16 year old girls who pressurise other girls (and themselves!) to be slim/made-up/sexy. It 's the media that have a huge role in spoonfeeding them that this is what women should be, more than anything else. Page 3 is iconic in this respect. If we want to change how the media present women, Page 3 is not a bad place to start.

[Nocomet]

Yes teen girls would be better if obj indication didn't exist, but I don't see how you change it when most if it comes from the girls themselves.

It isn't boys who tease and bully girls for having the wrong length trousers, the wrong hairstyle, bag or shoes. It's not the boys who notice DD isn't breaking the rules by wearing make-up and call her teachers pet. It's other girls.

Undoubtably you could blame a patriarchal society that makes girls and women so hung up on their appearance, but long words and feminist analysis doesn't solve a problem.

That has to begin with girls/women accepting the right to individuality of other woman and not engaging in pack status point scoring.

[Cuteypatootey]

Ugh, they should remove page 3 altogether.

[Nocomet]

If you were 8 you were very unusual. Teens might be daft enough to worry what boys think. I've never met an eight year old girl who doesn't know they are totally immature and not worth worrying about.

[BoomBoomsCousin]

You've completely missed the point about it changing the frame of the intended discussions and setting their expectations for the right of women to exist without being objectified so low.

The girls "like" ridiculing the boys about being "shallow". I bet that isn't true. I bet some of them enjoy practicing their debating skills. And I bet some of them relish scoring a few points. But I also bet they are damaged by the idea their male contemporaries objectify them as a matter of course and that standard of behaviour is considered fine by those with authority around them. If you aren't putting a stop to it they have few choices. They can sink into the ground and accept it, or they can fight back with all the righteous anger of youth. But that doesn't mean their lives wouldn't be better if such objectification wasn't apparently considered acceptable by the environment they are being educated in.

[Noodledoodledoo]

BoomBoomCousins as I said the way in which the girls respond does not give me the impression they feel harrassed, more they enjoy ridiculing the boys about being shallow.

About 18 months ago I was discussing with my tutor group attitudes towards porn - this was the Autumn after 50 shades of Grey had been the summer read. The views on porn/page 3/books etc were pretty similar across the board all anti but also completely able to discuss it openly. I will admit to being shocked at how many of them (boys and girls) had read 50 shades during the holidays with apparently parently permision.

[BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability]

Nocomet, i was 8, did you miss that bit? The age of the OPs child.

But thanks for calling 8 year old child me stupid.
As it happens, I was fine as a teenager, and in fact, as soon as some others caught up.

[Nocomet]

Sorry Beyondlimits I can't help your teen lack of self confidence. Teen boys and other girls say things about each others figures withiut pg 3. And as I said above I don't think page 3 is anything like as damaging as almost everyother picture of thin pretty girls in the papers.

Page 3 is entirely honest and straightforward. It pretty much says in bold print. "I'm being paid for this photo because I have unusally good tits."

Any girl stupid enough to feel inadiquate because she doesn't have tits good enough for a national paper is a bloody fool.

It's like me feeling addiquate that I that I will never be an olympic athlete or a ballerina.

[Goblinchild]

Spotty, would your DD giggle about it as well?

[Goblinchild]

I suppose for me the point is that there are 30+ children in the class and if one of them is going to be distressed by something that is easily avoidable, whatever my personal opinion, then it's logical to fix the problem.
There are other occasions and arenas for debating tricky subjects in a classroom, and an appropriate age.

[Spottybra]

I wouldn't really mind. Ds would giggle because his friends would giggle. They'd think he was giggling with them when he's actually be giggling at the fact they were giggling over breasts.

[BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability]

I'll save you the effort of going back to look for it...

I have a distinct memory of a boy when we were in year 4 (so about 8 or 9) saying "bet you wish your boobies looked like hers" at a craft table. I was just starting puberty, and wearing a bra, not some innocent child who didnt know anything (i started my periods at 10), and I was embarrassed, and upset at my just-starting-to-grow boobs for not being big enough.

[BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability]

So, none of the "whats the point" posters read my comment then?

[Fakebook]

Yanbu. I remember doing art at primary school and having pages of breasts on the table. Tbh they used to scare me and took away a part of my innocence. It's soft porn if you ask me and yes, ofcourse they should be removed before donating a "newspaper" to the school.

[deakymom]

look page three is really nothing its not hardcore porn i really don't see the issue with banning it there is worse in the sport fgs i seriously grew up visiting and working at my dads factory there were boobs everywhere i used to play the real fake game with them and laugh at the chap who honestly believed sam fox was entirely real

its not people being exploited no one is forced to do it its up to them and you dont have to buy it and you dont need to look