Should men should be prosecuted for paying for sex

[ICanSeeTheSun]

On channel 4 news now.

I think they should.

There is also talk about legalising prostitution. Which in a way I think in a way it should because at least the women who does it would have more protection.

[Toadinthehole]

LRD,

A turd for your argument. There is a world of difference between saying that a married person has a right to sex, and saying anyone has a right to sex.

The prevailing view until really very recently was sex was for within marriage only. So it is nonsense to suggest that the common view that men (or people in general) had some special right to sex is anything but recent.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Why on earth is there a difference?

As far as the history goes: well, no.

The prevailing view until recently was not that sex was for within marriage. That was the nice, polite recommendation, which hid the fact that the authorities believed men needed sex outside marriage too. Brothels have been tolerated and/or encouraged for centuries, because it was considered necessary to the health of the state.

A really unpleasant side issue was that women who were caught on the streets alone - ie., poor women, usually - could be 'checked' for venereal disease on the assumption they were prostitutes. This 'checking' amounted to sexual assault.

But very few (other than Josephine Butler) questioned the idea that prostitutes needed to be there, even if the laws on venereal disease resulted in sexual assault on some women ... because, of course, men 'needed sex'.

[ICanSeeTheSun]

No women should have to sell sex in order to live.

I doubt there is a single women in the sex trade that went in without any reason but they enjoy sex and want to please men for money.

[Grennie]

And only naive people think what happens in prostitution is sex. it is not. It is one, usually a man, paying to sexually use another's body, usually a woman.

[SolidGoldBrass]

THere are basically three kinds of sex workers. The group in need of help and support are those who are not in the industry willingly; the coerced, the trafficked, the conned, the addicted. Most sane people would agree that they need support and help rather than prosecution, deportation, stigmatization. Where reasonable people disagree is on what percentage of sex workers fall into this category
ANother category is the 'happy hooker/Belle De Jour' sex worker who is doing the job voluntarily, who isn't stupid, isn't a victim, may see him/herself as a healer or therapist. These sex workers don't want or need help 'to exit', though they don't want to be stigmatized or harassed by the police in the name of protection, either.
Probably the largest group would be the ones who are neither exploited prisoners nor enthusiasts: the ones who are doing it because it's the choice they see as the one most suited to their circumstances at present. THese are the ones who see it as preferable and more lucrative than cleaning toilets, perhaps more ethical than working in a fast food place, or just easier in terms of flexible hours and self-regulation.

As to the argument I keep hearing these days about decriminalisation would lead to job centres forcing all out-of-work women to take up sex work - can job centres really force people to take on jobs that offend or outrage their personal worldview? IE can they compel a vegetarian to work in an abbatoir or a teetotaller to get a job in a pub?

[normalishdude]

I support the regulation and registration of clients and workers.

[BettySwollocksandaCrustyRack]

No men (or women) should not be prosecuted for paying for sex - as long as it is regulated properly then it is a service industry.

For some people this is the only way they get to have sex.

[Grennie]

SGB - Of course the job centre can't afford anyone to take a job. But they will cut your benefits if you won't take a job. And of course those jobs can be against your world view.

[caruthers]

As a man I wouldn't pay for sex because I would imagine sex that is paid for is empty and pointless.

But for those people who benefit from the arrangement let's get some genuine regulation in place with regards to safety/coercion and of course tax.

[ediblewoman]

If the only way to have sex is to pay someone then have a wank. How can buying someone ( who, and I am sorry SGB I think you are wrong about which is the largest group, and would question that any woman who is a prostitute is really freely giving consent when we live in a patriarchal society rigged against women) ever be right. Only in a society that regards women as objects could anyone find the idea of paid sex arousing, bleurghhhhhh

[Grennie]

Betty - Why do you think people have a right to have sex no matter what?

And you are actually basing your comment on a myth. The majority of men who use prostituted women have partners. It is one of the reasons some Cities have had a policy of writing to partners if men are caught soliciting or kerb crawling - because it is so common for them to have a partner.

And lots of prostituted women who have been on the street will tell you that men paid them who had baby and toodler seats in the back of their car.

Men who use prostituted women are not lonely misfits. They are ordinary men who feel entitled to use women.

[Grennie]

SGB - Every survey done well, has shown that about 85-95% of women who are being prostituted want out. It is often very hard to leave and start a new life.

[ikeaismylocal]

I think that ideally both the buying and selling of sex should be illegal.

I think if only one side is illegal it should be the people buying sex.

I live in Sweden and the attitude to women and sex is very different here. I don't know any men who have gone to a strip club, I don't even know if there are strip clubs.

Most of the people I have spoken to about this law feel strongly that it is morally right.

I think that regardless of the practical impact the law to criminalize buying sex has had the moral message that it is those with the power ( the men/women buying sex from vulnerable people) that are in the wrong'.

[Latara]

The only man who I have heard admit to using prostitutes (in fact it was an addiction for him) had a wife at the time!

[SolidGoldBrass]

Grennie - all surveys about sexual behaviour need treating with some suspicion. Because the participants may well blur the truth or lie outright, sometimes to wind up a gullible researcher, sometimes in order to supply what the participant believes the researcher wants to hear.

And the ongoing stigma that sex workers are all damaged, desperate, drug users etc is part of the reason it's hard for them to find other work.

This is interesting (though it's more about porn than ongoing sex work).

[Latara]

I have seen two types of prostitute locally -

English women who are drug addicts and work mainly on the streets (sometimes they have toddlers with them - and they care for each others' toddlers while with a punter).

and Foreign women (East European, African usually) who are 'escorts' who are based in local bars / hotels unofficially. I have heard these women talking in the toilets - it seems they do it through choice for the money alone and they worry about losing their looks through ageing and therefore their income. The customers are usually businessmen and I bet most of them are married.

My mum works in an affluent part of town and sees private properties that are used as brothels - most of the women are unhappy-looking women from South East Asia - I bet they are trafficked :(

I don't know what the answer is but prostitution is definitely big business in this area.

[AgaPanthers]

If buying sex was illegal what would change? Women would still advertise for 'massage', 'personal services', etc.

[ICanSeeTheSun]

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

The men don't care about the women, all they want is to get there ends away and their balls empty.

Reviewing women like some sort of b&b review.

So if a man pay £100 for sex, does the women have the right to say well no I'm not happy with this stop now. Does the man stop well no because they believe they have paid for the service and want to get the £100 value.

The women then of course can't go to the police, if she did she would be at risk.

[YNK]

I have heard that 70% of women exiting prostitution have PTSD.

[Darkesteyes]

What pisses me off is the media turning up to photograph and film brothel raids WHY? FFS! Seems to me like a very sly form of trying to shame the women.

[neverthebride]

I know drugs are a different issue but there are similar aspects that need to be considered. I personally don't know anyone who has chosen not to use drugs at any point in their life just because it is illegal to do so. They don't use for many reasons personal to them. The same as the illegality of it doesn't stop users from pursuing it and our criminal justice system is full of people who have chosen to use or sell drugs despite knowing the legal consequences.

Men who pay women for sex are doing so for specific reasons and I don't see the threat of prosecution making much difference to that.

The worst case scenario is that it would potentially make them more invested in 'covering up' their activities which may make sex workers put themselves in even more vulnerable positions to reassure the 'client' they won't get caught.

And what penalties would prosecutions lead to?. Prisons are already grossly overcrowded so what are we planning to do?. A fine? Community service? All these aspects need to be considered. It would need to be a sufficient consequence but we also need to be realistic about further pressures (financially and in terms of time) on an already stretched Police force and Courts.

I don't know what the answer is and don't pretend to but I don't think this will improve things.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

It should be regulated and taxed like any other service not criminalised.

Further criminalisation will make it more dangerous for prostitues not less.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

Ican

Yes they can and if the men don't stop then it's rape. Prostitues and the law distinguish between construal, paid for sex and rape.

How well it works in practise is something I couldn't say, but the distinction is there.

[MyBaby1day]

Yes, it should be made illegal, it's disgusting!.

[Toadinthehole]

LRD

The prevailing view historically was that sex outside marriage was wrong. Given that society was, until recent times, utterly male dominated, it is accordingly absurd to suggest that men historically believed they had an inalienable right to sex.

Otherwise, how do you account for things like abortion being illegal, and prostitution either illegal or heavily circumscribed historically? How do you account for the fact that rape (outside marriage) was a capital offence for most of English history? It was not some kind of polite facade - those were the social norms, notwithstanding the fact that some people broke them, and notwithstanding that disapproval was stronger during some periods and in some places than in others.

I am starting to think you don't know what you're talking about.

The truth is that in Europe it is only in recent times that sex has been seen generally as something that it is OK for anyone to enjoy, regardless of its procreative purpose. This is mainly due to the decline of traditional Christianity.