Was my friend unreasonable to suggest this?

[ScarletLady02]

I've had a lot of stress recently, I won't go into (another subject entirely) but it's clouding my judgement a bit as I'm not thinking that clearly.

My daughter has a few communication problems and some other issues that concern me a bit. She was 3 in December. She shows little interest in potty training. She knows that people use toilets and potties, and what they do on them but if I try and gently encourage her to use one herself she totally freaks out. She'll sit on one and "pretend" to use it but only for a second then she gets off, it's like she's playing at using it. As we've been through a lot recently, I haven't really pushed the issue but people keep asking me why she isn't "trained" yet.

Another thing that worries me is her communication...and by that I mean listening, not speaking. Her vocabulary and pronunciation is very good (so I'm told) but she struggles with social interaction and understanding quite a lot. She's quite shy and anxious in new situations. She is also very demanding at the moment (but I'm guessing that's normal).

She doesn't like people touching her...mostly strangers, but sometimes even us. If she doesn't understand something she gets very upset. I'm struggling to find a way to describe how she is. She's very particular and if something isn't exactly to her expectations she will have a total tantrum.

It really frustrates me as it comes across that she is spoilt and rude at times and I hope I haven't fostered that in her. She switches off sometimes when I'm trying to explain what's expected of her, I try and simplify it and speak in a clear and calm but firm way. She does shout and scream quite a lot and refuses with lots of "NO!!!" and if she gets like that I'll give her a time out until she calms down. I don't see the point in reasoning with a tantrumming 3 year old...or telling them off as they're not taking in what you're saying (or that's how it seems anyway). She's become very argumentative, which is really hard to deal with. Example - Her "I want to go upstairs and play in my room" Me - "OK, go on then" Her "NOOOO I don't want to!!" That's just a vague example...she'd argue with herself if she could I think. It drives me batty sometimes.

The other day, someone I consider a friend suggested that maybe she had some sort of SEN. She has a very different parenting style to me. She's very strict and authoritarian, whereas I'm laid back and generally try and guide her towards the right way, rather than force it.

I have no clue about SEN. I personally just think she's struggling with communicating a bit and gets frustrated, but maybe I'm wrong. Is this all normal behaviour? Is there anything I should be concerned about? Nursery are very happy with her, she's behind slightly in physical tasks, but they say her mental development in terms of numbers/colours/letters and things like that is good.

I know this is probably me worrying over nothing....I seem to be doing a lot of that recently. And please I dont' want anyone to think that I consider SEN a "problem" so I apologise if my language is clumsy, I just want to see f she needs any help and if she does, how I got about that.

Also, if it's just totally normal toddler behaviour, any help to deal would be AMAZING...I'm so tired.

[x2boys]

I agree with others to go and see your GP or Health visitor as if there is an issue they can get the ball rolling my son aged three was diagnosed with autism and some learning difficulties at xmas as a parent its not something you want to hear and tbh I,m still having trouble accepting it but everything is in place now to help him the earlier the interventions the better.

[Daisypod]

This sounds exactly like my DS2 (forth child) all of which I feel are completely 'normal' behaviours for a toddler. I have a friend who is a child development worker and when I talk to her she always asks what he is up to atm and when I tell her she just says 'oh yeah the blah blah phase!'
While it is hard work it could very easily just be toddler behaviour and personally I wouldn't rush to any conclusions. I am certainly not worried about my son as I remember all my kids going through the same, not one has SN or concerns about such and they range in age from 12-6.

[BlackeyedSusan]

Nursery did not spot ds's ASD, so don't bank on them saying anything. and he is a boy, girls can present differently.

also she is the same dd you love whether she has a label or not. if she does have sn then getting a label is helpful. does not change who she is.

re potty training. perfectly normal not do be trained at three according to all the professionals we have seen.

[SugarMiceInTheRain]

Not read all the posts, but the issues your DD is having sound very much like the issues my DS1 had. As a first time mum I had a feeling things weren't quite right, and suspected that he might be on the autistic spectrum, but didn't know if I was just being paranoid, or expecting too much, or what. I was very grateful when two good friends independently voiced concerns about his development - it validated my concerns and gave me the confidence to speak to my HV and GP, who referred me on to a paediatrician. Funnily enough, once we had support from experts, it became easier to deal with his behaviour, eating issues, toileting problems and communication, as we knew what we were up against, that it wasn't down to our parenting, and were given strategies to help us. You will probably find that if you seek help, it actually takes a weight off your mind, rather than adding to your stress. I have encountered people, both personally and professionally who bury their heads in the sand with regards to their children's problems, and I really feel for them, as I know they don't want to be told that something is 'wrong' with their child, but at the same time they are making their own (and their child's) lives harder by refusing to acknowledge it.

Not saying this is necessarily the case for you and your DD, but I think your friend has been brave, and been an excellent friend to suggest this, knowing that she risks offending you, but wanting to help, so please don't hold it against her. I'm glad my friends told me their thoughts, as it meant we accessed the help we needed sooner than would otherwise have been the case.

[LongTailedTit]

OP You've had lots of really lovely helpful posts here from people with experience of SNs, but I just wanted to add my tuppence if that's ok.

My DS (nearly 3) has had SN suggested quite regularly since he was a baby, generally by people who've simply had a different parenting experience. My mum is the worst one for this, often hinting that there's something 'not right' with him, she has only experienced parenting two frankly placid girls, and sees problems in any child that is different to her expectations/experience.
A friend with actual knowledge of SNs thinks it possible but unlikely - her opinion is 100x more valuable to me.
So, while I agree that's it's always a good idea to look into things, do think about where the person saying it is coming from.
If I typed out DSs behaviour on here I'm pretty sure I'd be told by some that he has AS traits.

In our case, I mentioned it to our GP at 2.5 and she agreed with me that his AS traits were not strong enough to warrant investigating at this age, and to see how he developed. Obv she also said to go back if we had further concerns, or if the same issues were present at 4-5yo as it can be difficult to tell the difference between some fairly common toddler behaviour and genuine signs of SN. By school age it becomes easier to diagnose apparently.

PS - my DS behaves beautifully for others too, galling isn't it! :)

[NoNoNoNoNoYabu]

Your friend probably thinks it could be SEN because she can see how well you handle her and some things are still a struggle. Not because you're doing it all wrong, then she wouldn't think it was SEN at all would she?

good luck with it all.

[Objection]

ScarletLady02 - Please don't think I was berating you, I was trying to encourage you to view it as something other than a negative reflection on yourself/your daughter.

[ScarletLady02]

Thank-you SO much for all your posts, they mean the world to me.

I will definitely make an appointment and start looking into things.

Objection - I'm sorry if I worded it wrong, I didn't it want it to come across like I see SEN a "problem", more something I need help learning to deal with.

tulipgrower - if other people look after her she generally comes back with glowing reports. Even my friend from my OP says she's always as good as gold for her. She's not "naughty" as such, just wilful, defiant and a bit awkward socially. She's never been violent or spiteful. She's generally a happy child, if she's occupied she's brilliant. She picks things up really quickly and loves learning, which is great.

She loves music by the way anotherSNmummy - me and DH both play so we get her involved as much as we can.

[PicaK]

I'm so sorry you're feeling upset. It could well be that this is the worst day you have - it can only get better. Right now you have little info, no sources of support a big,black hole of knowledge and worry.

If you ask for help you will get it. As our paediatrician says the help they give in case your child is on the autistic spectrum won't harm them if they're just delayed and will be of immeasurable benefit if they are.

I've done the self-blame thing, it's hard not to. But not one professional has been pointy fingering. Most of them have taken time to build up my confidence.

Make the call to your HV and/or GP. And that friend is worth her weight in gold.

Just having someone say "yup they do that and she probably does x and maybe y etc etc" will have an amazing effect of a weight lifting. You may find even without realising you've been helping your daughter, protecting her from situations instinctively.

[wigglesrock]

I was in your friends position a few years ago. I thought so hard about how to talk to her, I just did one day. Her son has received help & support for mainly speech & listening and has been under the care of a combined team of speech therapists, physical therapists, clinical psychologist. He's now almost 6 & about to go into mainstream education, he was in a small education unit within a primary school previously.

It could be something, it could be nothing, but as others have said its not a reflection on your parenting at all. I hope you get some support.

[Nomama]

Have some more

Think of it this way: you go to the GP and she gets a diagnosis of a something. Then, instead of worrying over it, fighting with it, banging your head against a brick wall, you get to understand what is different, you get helpful suggestions for helping her cope/progress and you can relax, knowing you have removed a potential barrier.

I think your friend was brave, knowing how much upset this could cause you. Give her some flowers and lean on her a bit whilst you get this looked into.

Good luck xx

[anotherSNmummy]

My son has Asperger's syndrome. Very bright, struggles socially, has many tantrums. Even if your daughter is on the autistic spectrum it only means she will have to learn social clues. She will be a great pupil, might become a scientist or a musician. Nurture her talents. There is nothing wrong with being a little bit different.

[fairylightsintheloft]

she sounds an awful lot like our son, who at 4.5 has now been assessed by a pediatrician as most likely to be high functioning autistic. We're on the waiting list for a full assessment and confirmation but his reception class are implementing strategies assuming that he is. Obviously you have to look it into properly - ask nursery to focus on specific things - speak to the manager not just the key worker.

[Objection]

I think "concerned" is the wrong word to use here.
It sounds to me (and I'm not an expert nor are all the facts here) that SN may be a factor here.
This is not an "issue" to be "concerned" about - it is more a factor that should be explored in order to provide support to both you and your daughter should it be necessary.
If SN is a factor then there is a lot of support, information and resources out there for you; both on MN and RL.
If SN is ruled out by an expert, then it is just something she will perhaps grow out of or simply a personality thing.

Please don't be so harsh on yourself or your parenting.

[MojitoMadness]

OP your description of your dd sounds EXACTLY like my dd1 when she was 3, right down to the sleeping problems and potty training, communicating etc. 3 was a very hard age for dd and for us as parents, it was so hard to deal the way she was different from other 3 years olds yet people expected her to behave a certain way and thought she was rude and spoilt. I used to get very upset too.

We now know that my dd has ASD (she's 11 now). It explains so much about her behaviour and reaction to things back then. I would definitely try and get her assessed if you can. My dd wasn't diagnosed until she was 8 and with hindsight things would have been a lot easier if we'd have got the ball rolling earlier with getting her diagnosed.

[Technical]

When I had similar(but different) concerns about ds1 i wrote to the gp in the first instance - in a similar vein to your op. I didn't want to take him to gp and discuss all his "failings" in front of him.

GP responded brilliantly, referred us without seeing ds. Most of my worries turned ot to be unfounded but we did get fantastic help with one particular issue

[AllThatGlistens]

I think it really is well worth getting this investigated, I completely understand your fear if something is 'wrong' but in my experience, having answers is massively helpful and it also opens the doors to a vast array of support - speech, physio, OT, play therapy etc.

I have 3DC, and both sons are autistic. My daughter is neurotypical, or 'normal'. My youngest Ds is 3.6 and has severe Autism and developmental delay. Ds1 is 10 and has High Functioning Autism, or Aspergers as it used to be known.

It is frightening when you first start to think about a possible ASD assessment, and it may well be the case that it wouldn't be a correct diagnosis for your child, so don't think it's a certainty, it's a massive spectrum, and my boys are on the extreme opposite ends of it to each other!

What you've said does raise a few flags, but again, don't panic and think it's a definite, no one can diagnose over the internet and you have to meet a very strict criteria (Triad of Impairment) to be diagnosed, but it will be really helpful to you and your little one to get it investigated and then appropriate support (if needed) could be put in place.

try not to worry too much, have a chat with your GP/ HV and take it from there

[Thetallesttower]

Your friend wasn't being unreasonable, it's always better to say something than have horrible suspicions.

I would follow it up for peace of mind and get more info from the nursery about a range of her behaviours- much of it reminds me of my rather challenging dd1 at aged three, she said no all the time, was actively disobedient, didn't really express emotion much at all except for humungous tantrums- in her case though there wasnt anything underlying it, it was just three year old behaviour, but I did worry. It is hard to know what is normal.

[tulipgrower]

ScarletLady - Most of your post describes my 3year old, DS2 fairly accurately. Yes, it is tiring.

In the UK potty training seems to be considered a much bigger deal, than for example in my corner of the world (a tiny town in Germany) it is considered a complete non-issue if my child is not potty at 3yrs old. Neither my pediatrician nor the kindergarten are concerned in the slightest.

He has always been shy around new people and in new situations, (but so was my older son, until recently). He has recently become very "Mummy"-orientated, despite my husband being a hands-on Dad. I have to brush his teeth, change his clothes etc., or else he tantrums.

In fact he has lots of tantrums about trivial things, e.g. the honey jar being placed back at exactly the right spot on the table, so he can continue eating, sometimes he demands a specific colour cup, otherwise he has a tantrum, ... Lots of "NO"s to the simplest requests, sometimes we are just ignored. He is currently VERY strenuous.

But in his case I suspect it is a just phase he is going through, as when I have had the opportunity to spy on him at kindergarten or at his gym group interacting with others, he is cooperative, friendly and follows orders. The feedback from others who have minded him recently is also positive. (I specifically asked about his behaviour) DS2 also eats things in kindergarten, that would cause a tantrum if offered at home.

How does she behave around others in familiar surroundings, when you are not around? Does she have "good days"? There is never any harm following up the SEN angle for peace of mind.

[Cheesypeepsandhelpmaboab]

I joined this site last year for that very reason,because I didn't know where to look for help and didn't know if I wanted to know the truth. My DD is violent along with all her other wee quirky ways , I HAD to get help in the end because she's bigger than me now. You will get help when your ready and not before . This doesn't have to be a stress I promise you . Try to be positive and it can be fun. My DD is at university and even learning to drive ( clear the roads ! ), although she is on her own all the time which bothers me but I'm told that's how it is . I'm still learning myself and it's hard but your never to old to learn . I find setting down rules and sticking to them helps a lot, change is bad so make a plan and stick to it . Your life actually ends up blending in just fine and dandy with it all . Easy peasy lemon squeezy. Don't be scared be brave xx

[Nanny0gg]

If there's something wrong getting advice will only help you. If there isn't, then there's help out there for a huge range of toddler 'issues'. I had concerns about one of my DGC who has quite stressful food issues and a very limited diet (though it seems to run in the family), but it's dealable with.

And there is a huge wealth of help and support on MN, so once you've seen your GP, come back and post on the Behaviour or SEN threads (even if no SEN as such) there's so many knowledgeable and helpful people on there.
Do you have any real life support?

[Pawprint]

It could just be her age, or it could be she needs to be assessed for ASD.

Personally, I don't think her behaviour sounds remotely abnormal - more like she's asserting herself with the touching, potty etc. If you are stressed then she may be picking up on it.

However, it's better to check these things out earlier than later. I expect your friend was worried about mentioning it - perhaps she should have kept quiet rather than worry you, but I expect she thought it was for the best.

[YouTheCat]

Speak to your HV or doctor and get a referral. There might be something, or there might be nothing, going on. But if there is, early intervention is the best thing you can do and it means that you will get help and so will she.

[ScarletLady02]

Thank-you, you're so sweet. It's just been a really shitty week. I've been scared to look for help because I'm scared I'll find out something is wrong and then it'll add to my stresses.

I know that's stupidly counter-productive but my head isn't exactly thinking properly at the moment...

[Cheesypeepsandhelpmaboab]

Scarletlady ... YOU WILL COPE. We all have. My Dd is faddy with food still, I used to and still do DREAD going places with her incase she threw a tantrum, she wouldn't wash for days because her fingers wrinkled ... Cheesy peeps the list goes on and on...I have lasted 20 years , I've gone through an extremely violent marriage I've been a single parent you name it and I did it without even knowing she had aspergers until recently and guess what ... I coped, maybe not the best but I did it and I'm still here and so is she. Be brave and the people who matter will help you and stand by you and the people who don't don't matter !! I'm so proud of my girl and wouldn't change her for the world. Xx