Debating about holiday venue based on the country's human rights?

[Undertone]

So - my friend is keen on going to Morocco this spring.

I didn't set out to learn about it, but last week I read an article about where in the world it is still a criminal offence to be gay. Morocco is on that list. I feel very strongly about the issue. If I went there on holiday am I choosing to ignore the fact that people are oppressed in that country?

Of course the other side of that coin is that tourism brings all sorts of peoples and cultures to a country. A country is slightly more likely to bring their human rights in line with an acceptable international average over time if they're part of a busy tourism industry - maybe.

Am I over thinking this? Maybe it's just me.

[Undertone]

See that's another good argument. How do I know what the frig I'm talking about if I don't actually go? If it's far more liberal than some diagrams in an article suggest, then seeing that would be good. It means also I meet with people living it day to day instead of dehumanising a whole nation into a set of statistics. Hmm.

[Undertone]

Gosh that's fucking terrible about Turkey.

[filingdrivesmemad]

YANBU
I would love to go to Sri Lanka, but I have decided not to go there after having seen a BBC news report a few weeks ago, about the horrendous torture inflicted on opponents to the regime. I suppose however we should do more than just take a negative stance, as the regime will never know that they are missing my money, nor why. I suppose we should be writing to the holiday companies that offer the holidays in these countries, and also lobbying our MPs. (I have written to my MP about the torture in Sri Lanka, but I never received any reply.)

I was selfish many years ago. I went to China about 4 years after the massacre in Tiannamen Square, despite wondering if I should. I had a great time, they benefited from my money, and no one knew about my qualms beforehand. I feel I was selfish and unprincipled in going there. Trouble is, as many posters have said, where do you draw the line?

[beluga425]

I have travelled all over the world. I care very much about human rights. I keep informed and support Amnesty.
Just because we may enjoy great personal freedoms, it doesn't stop our liberal democracies from contributing to or sometimes committing horrendous atrocities. Extraordinary Rendition anyone?
Just saying...

[LittleBabyPigsus]

Is the Turkey incident modern? Turkey is a modern democracy and very secular for a Muslim country.

Morocco and other former French colonies in North Africa have historically been famous for secret gay trysts (lots of gay English writers went on holiday there), but that doesn't change how the law stands. Supporting the secrecy is unhelpful for actual gay Moroccans. Also, it's almost entirely gay men who get away with homosexuality - women aren't quite so lucky. Men holding hands is a bit of a red herring - it's not seen as sexual there but just friendly, a bit like cheek kissing in France I guess?

Speaking as a queer woman, it feels a bit off for others to be so casual about choosing to visit countries that I cannot visit because of who I am. I feel like some posters aren't getting the severity of life for LGBT people in some countries. There are countries I can be killed in for just visiting them. I can't see how objecting to that is being precious.

bluesbaby you had a nice time because your liberty was never in danger just because of your sexuality. Maybe remember that some of us don't have that luxury.

[Greythorne]

I agree; men holding on hands in Egypt or Morocco does not mean they are gay. It's what heterosexual male friends do when they are out and about.

[superstarheartbreaker]

I know what you mean but it is like this as it is a muslim country. I have been there and is also an amazing country. Most muslim countries also treat women diffently and Morocco is no acception. If you cant accept Islam dont go. I found it hard being leered at tbh.

[Snowdown]

For years dh refused to go to Turkey because if their civil rights record....we eventually went last year and we fell in love with the country, our dcs learned a lot about the country, I think we all fell a little bit in love and that love of Turkey will always mean we will care and be interested in what happens there. It creates a connection that otherwise didn't exist. But like someone else said there are not many countries with a clean record when you look into it properly. I didn't think we'll shy away from taking the dcs - it's very enlightening to travel and see how the rest of the world lives.

[mercibucket]

morocco is better than most arab countries (or has been since the last king died) but played a role in torture and rendition. i am surprised you focussed on treatment of homosexuality as a cause of concern, that is not such a big issue there as other arab nations, but maybe you already ruled them out too?

[thegreylady]

Remember that every country you may visit has a dark underbelly. Even so called first world countries can have things going on which are contrary to what you feel is acceptable. Think about parts of the USA, the recent history in Germany, the crime and poverty in South Africa etc. Look at the many scandals pertaining to children in care in this country and in Ireland.
I love Turkey but I know there are situations that are less than ideal. The orphanages have been reformed and the Kurdish situation has improved although many Turks still regard the Kurds as terrorists. Unfortunately the Kurds see themselves as a separate nation but they do not have their own country now so inevitably 'take over' land on the borders of Turkey and its neighbours.

[Undertone]

Fair point merci - it's only because I came across that article recently about homosexuality whilst in this discussion with my friend about going to Morocco. We didn't even consider other Arab countries - our preconception was that Morocco was a really touristy place and we could select it as casually as one could Sicily or Croatia...

Done a bit more research - here's a couple of recent Al Jazeera stories about Morocco: teenagers arrested for kissing and women's rights bill in debate

[PleaseJustLeaveYourBrotherAlon]

america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/11/22/moroccan-teen-marriedtoherrapistcommitssuicide.html

[LucySnoweShouldRelax]

I've seen people post on here that they refuse to visit Ireland because abortion is illegal.

It's fair enough, but it's not nice to see your country reduced to a government stance that appalls you and every other Irish person you know.

Iran is a similar, but far more extreme, example. As far as I am aware, there is a large liberal, intellectual community in Iran (in the cities in particular?), but we see them all as fundamentalists because of their government and a religious majority. Majority does not equal the views of a whole nation.

[LucySnoweShouldRelax]

Obviously, no one's hopping on a Ryanair flight to Tehran any time soon, but I was just dwelling on writing off a country due to a reputation.

[Creamycoolerwithcream]

I've visited Romania, Bulgaria, Egypt, Turkey, Russia and disagreed with their human rights. I've seen real poverty in Brazil and Cape Town but it hasn't put me of going to these places because I have such a hunger to see new countries.

[Fannydabbydozey]

I've visited Iran because I worked for an Iranian company and the boss wanted us westerners to see what it was really like there. It was an eye opener actually. I was thinking "not without my daughter" and it was much more cosmopolitan and liberal than I imagined. Plus the Persian people I met HATED the regime and were incredibly welcoming and hospitable. It was an incredible experience and I didn't have to wear a black sack. Lots of young people very engaged in trying to change the politics of their country in a way which wouldn't get them arrested. I'm glad I went.

[Mumoftwoyoungkids]

It's difficult as if you go on Amnesty International's site you will find info on abuses in every country.

So you have to decide on your own lines. And what to do about them. Obviously the best thing would be for me to become an active Amnesty campaigner working 90 hours a week to protest all the abuses around the world. But I have a job and two young kids and severe sleep deprivation so that is not going to happen. Not visiting and so not directly giving my money to countries I don't approve of is my way of quietly protesting. I share why if asked.

I have decided that the death penalty is my line in the sand. It's a funny one as the countries I can and can't visit are a bit random (USA is no go but I think the Maldives - although technically still having the death penalty have not used it in my lifetime - is acceptable.)

[ihatethecold]

Personally I wouldn't go to Egypt after hearing about the women being raped in tahir sq during the demonstrations.
I know people say that share etc is miles away but to me it's the principle.
I'm also not keen on Dubai.
I don't like inequality between people with regard to gender, sexuality etc.

I do believe that everyone has the right to go where they wish.
Just my own preference to not go to these places.

[LittleBabyPigsus]

LucySnowe that is interesting about people refusing to visit Ireland. Even though I know abortion is illegal there it had somehow not occurred to me to boycott it, probably because I know there will be significant numbers of people in Ireland who are pro-choice (isn't it one of the most rapidly secularising countries in the world?).

Mum re the death penalty, would you not visit US states that have abolished it? Only a minority of states have it now, and it's very much a states rights issue so not something the federal government can change (like gay marriage). I am not criticising your choice btw, just curious.

I just remembered an old LGBT youth group leader mentioning her and her girlfriend holidaying in Morocco with no problems - but not sure if them being in a relationship was picked up on iyswim.

For me there are already so many countries that have taken themselves off my list (being imprisoned or killed doesn't sound like a great holiday treat to me) that I'm not sure I want to restrict myself further.

[LittleBabyPigsus]

For the Maldives - for me the freedom of religion violations would stop me from visiting.

[feesh]

I can't believe the hypocrisy on this thread. I live in the Middle East (where women ARE actually free and have great lives, it's women driving most of the positive change here in the Gulf and it's women doing most of the studying and working for change). Since I've been here I've realised how the rest if the world sees Britain and it's not pretty! What ever you think of countries' human rights issues, not travelling there won't change them one iota. But travelling there will give you the other side of the story and it might open your eyes to how us Brits are perceived in terms of human rights by the rest of the world. I'm not religious, but there is a very good line from the bible about first removing the plank from your own eyes before removing others' etc.

Nothing is black and white.

[Creamycoolerwithcream]

I so agree with you Feesh.

[LittleBabyPigsus]

feesh please point out where in Britain people can get the death penalty for being gay

There is quite a big gap between 'not being perfect' and 'executing people for being gay' or 'stoning rape victims'.

[ukatlast]

Quote ? 'I have decided that the death penalty is my line in the sand. It's a funny one as the countries I can and can't visit are a bit random (USA is no go but I think the Maldives - although technically still having the death penalty have not used it in my lifetime - is acceptable.)'

I don't like going to places with the death penalty either. In USA it is only in some states though so you can go to say New England.
My objections to it are somewhat self-interested i.e. I could myself be wrongly accused lol.

[Nataleejah]

YANBU.
A country which doesn't respect human rights is a very unsafe travel destination, unless you really up to take the ultimate risk.