to be shocked that my friend was the OW

[NonJudgementalWannabe]

name changed for this as i don't know if i am being a bit silly

i met another mum a couple of years ago through the dcs school, we instantly hit it off and now i class her as one of my best friends. our dcs are very close as well.

we were recently talking about how we met our DHs and it transpired that she was the OW. i have to say i was (and am) shocked. as she just doesn't seem the "type" IYSWIM, and neither does her DH. she is one of the nicest, kindest people i have ever met.

friends DH is lovely too and absolutely besotted with her. they have been together 6 years, married 4 i think. they have a gorgeous little DD together and another one on the way. she was a single mum of one when they met, so he is also stepdad to her eldest. their marriage just all seems so genuine and lovely, i can't imagine them having such a horrid start, and doing such a horrible thing. according to my friend it was her DH that started things (she was single) they fell head over heels ( ) and he left his XW within weeks of meeting her, and he wasn't happy in his marriage anyway (but they all say that don't they.....) and she says its been very hard sometimes dealing with the guilt, fallout and what ifs etc.

i am possibly being biased as dh had an affair a few years ago. but i took him back and we worked through it, it wasn't easy. i never knew dh's OW, i sometimes still wonder about her tbh. i guess that, since dh's affair, i have had this image of the OW always being a hard faced nasty type and my lovely friend just doesn't fit the bill. she does seem to regret how they met but she wouldn't change anything as they are happy now. BTW my friend does not know about this.

i am not going to stop being her friend and i don't want to judge. but i just feel weird about it TBH, not sure what i am looking for but just wanted to write it down i guess.

[Strangetownblues]

Of course you're not.

But what has that got to do with anything being discussed here? The OP's friend isn't being evaluated as a person just by her association to men - or to her husband specifically. The issue that has perplexed the OP is that having once been involved in a joint enterprise to deceive another woman in order for her own interests to be served - that behaviour doesn't quite square with the rest of what the OP has learned about her friend's character over the past 2 years.

The same doubts might be raised about anyone who'd collaborated in the deceit of someone, in order to realise their own ambitions and would apply equally to a man who'd done the same. As it would apply equally to any other situation where someone took part in a deceit with another in order to gain an advantage. It implies that person has a strong selfish streak and if that wasn't apparent before (but she's only known her a couple of years after all) it's a bit discomfiting, perhaps.

As the OP says though, it probably stirred other things given what she's experienced personally.

[LessMissAbs]

Am I on my own here in not just seeing women in how they relate as people in their own right, and not just how they relate to men?

[RedHelenB]

Not sure | believe in "the right one" either.

[DameDeepRedBetty]

It's always hardest for decent people to make the decision to leave a marriage, especially if there are children. Very often, the unhappy partner will reach a point where he or she has realised it's not working out as they'd hoped when they tied the knot, but the affection they feel towards their partner is still strong and they don't want to hurt them. So couples lurch on in limbo - and then the unhappy one meets a person who IS the right one.
The right thing to do at this point is of course to tell your wife/husband/civil partner and make arrangements to separate. However sometimes the sexual attraction element is so strong that unfaithfulness happens before that. Decent people will feel guilty about that - just as your friend appears to.

[NonJudgementalWannabe]

oh definitely redhelen

[RedHelenB]

NO relationship is happy all the time - we're not living in Disneyland! I think affairs happen if something is on offer at a "low point" in a person's relationship.

[NonJudgementalWannabe]

yes thora i definitely think thats a big part of it.

[ThoraNomiki]

I read your OP as being more about how you feel about your own relationship than about judging your friend. It seems that the reason you are feeling uncomfortable is due to the realisation that your husband's OW may have been a perfectly lovely person (in a general sense) just like your friend, and that perhaps your husband had more culpability in the affair than you had previously credited him with. Finding out about your friend has naturally stirred some unresolved feelings about your husband's affair.

[hyenafunk]

Hmm was she actually the OW? She said he left his exW weeks after they met so doesn't that seem to be that they fell for each other and he realised he had to leave his W before it went further? That's how I read it anyway. Could be that they embarked on an affair for a few weeks and then he ended it, I don't know.

Either way it doesn't really affect who she is as a person. You said she's a lovely person and a good friend so putting her past 'mistakes' to one side, that should continue. Life is messy and complicated.

[VeryJudgy]

As you said, you demonised the woman your husband had the affair with thinking only a particular "type" of woman would be so low as to have an affair with an attached man, and were shocked that someone you thought was lovely is actually the kind of person that is okay with hurting other people (people like you). You probably assumed the OW your husband was with didn't think about you or how the affair would affect you or if she did, she didn't care... either way not a very good person. I think this may have brought up feelings you've had about the affair your husband had so if you feel you need to speak to someone, don't be afraid to do so.

I would find it hard to be friends with someone who talked about being the OW openly like that. It is nothing to be proud of and yes the man is more at fault (he's the one with the commitment and trust that he's broken), but depending on how it came about and how they conducted themselves (which is something you'll probably never know) I couldn't trust her. She's already shown that committed relationships mean nothing to her so I wouldn't think it would be a stretch for her to betray you in other ways.

Yes yes. I'm aware that I'm stupid, juvenile and completely irrational and while I wouldn't completely cut her off, I certainly wouldn't become too familiar with her either.

My husband and I have a strict hardline on cheating - NO forgiveness. There is no excuse. I don't care if you're unhappy, or whatever asinine reason you want to give, you chose to betray the trust of the person you're supposed to love and care for. If you've STOPPED feeling this way, then leave. If you're strong enough to cheat, you're strong enough to admit how you feel, get a legal separation, counseling or whatever... to prevent, or lessen the amount of pain you inflict on your family.

[MiniMonty]

It's actually much more easy to generalise than you might like to imagine.

I'll give you the bloke version:

There are three kinds of men in the world.
Yes, only three - we're simple creatures and we know what we want.

1. There are "decent geezas" who may drive a bus or drive an economy. They might paint masterpieces or paint walls and ceilings for minimum wage. These are the guys who want to bring up kids in a "real" family environment, who can adapt and change, who will give their all for the people they love.
   God bless the good guys.
   LIKELY TO SAY: "we should choose a holiday where all the kids are likely to find friends"
   UNLIKELY TO SAY: "I have a weekend thing in (anytown), get my suit dry cleaned".
   These guys never have affairs, never snog the bridesmaid behind the vestry and never get horny about their teenage daughters friends.
   
   
2. The middle way men - who sort of feel like they want the above but don't honestly feel they should have to work or give anything to achieve it, who will look for it (in a woman) and when it all seems well set up and self supporting they'll start looking around for the extra-curricular. They'll tend to "work late" and forget the kid's birthdays.
   LIKELY TO SAY: "what you don't understand is"...
   UNLIKELY TO SAY: (out loud) "I fancy your sister (and your best friend) and at the slightest hint of a chance I'm in like Flynn.
   These guys will try to have it all - a nice stable family life (into which they put very little effort) and a continuing "teenage" type existence where the ego has constantly to be pumped and rewarded by sexual conquest. (rude to dominate the secretary, smarmy to the blonde at the bar).
   
   
3. Marlon Brando. Pablo Picasso. The full on, don't give a shit arseholes who just do whatever they like with no let or hindrance, no care for a soul in the world, no real notion of remorse, guilt or reflection and make no secret of it. Also very little care for their own current or future safety. God bless these guys because they only hurt people who agree up front that it's OK if it turns out that way. This is the corny old thing of "the girls love a bad guy" and the grain of truth in it is that the girls love a guy who'll just be honest from the first to the last - and who can argue?
   
   So there are your three types. EVERY MAN I KNOW fits into one of these boxes (albeit sometimes roughly with edges and complaints) and you could (if you were boring enough) get a Venn diagram going to prove the crossovers - and blah blah bleet to that.
   This rule of thumb will, I promise you, help you guard against either hooking up with Mr Wrong or identifying who you DP actually is.
   
   As for the friend who was the OW - very simple - she's clearly proud of it and feels triumphant and glorious in her man-theft. Otherwise she would never have told you (or anyone else).
   Make your own judgement of her.
   
   Your DP sounds like a type two and yes, he'll do it again because he must. It's not even a choice for him, it's a drive.
   
   
   (I should make clear that other psychologists are available)
   
   : )

[Strangetownblues]

Very hard to generalise because every relationship is different - and affairs are relationships - so I don't think there are small number 'types' of affairs and definitely not only two! That's far too simplistic.

Neither do I think that every affair springs up out of an unhappy relationship. I know of several that had other causes entirely and all bar one of those couples are still together, even though the affair was known and dealt with.

Some affairs are really just about opportunity and ego-boosts and would never have happened if someone hadn't come along, right at the point when the married man or woman was at a low ebb (bereavement, redundancy, mid-life crisis sorts of things). It's not that they were unhappily married, but were feeling down about life in general. Nothing like a sexual ego boost to think you're the bees knees again...

I tend to think that if people like your friend's DH leave very quickly, there's more credibility attached to the 'unhappy marriage' claim, but impossible to generalise with that one either as I know at least 2 men who left for OW, regretted it and then remembered their marriages weren't unhappy after all and wanted to come back! I have known a few people though who were seemingly in the wrong relationship to start with and have made a go of things with the overlap man or woman. They are probably only 2-3 years tops down the line now though, so who knows whether they'll get itchy feet again?

Your friend does seem to be aware that it wasn't their finest hour in terms of behaviour and I'd guess it would be much worse if she was belligerent about it or critical of his ex wife. That seems to tie in with everything else you know about her, but as you also say she's talked about the what ifs there might be some insecurity about whether he'd do the same to her. It would be a bit odd if it never crossed her mind, so she might want to talk about that. Did you share your story by the way? It would be interesting for her to hear a wife's story, just as it's been interesting to you to hear an OW's story.

Finally, I really dislike the tone of some of these posts to you OP. I wonder whether some posters haven't read the bit about your own husband having an affair? You don't come across as judgmental at all and as your friend shared it with you, it's understandable to have mixed feelings about it after what you've been through.

[RunRabbit]

"I'd never be able to be friends with a person like that." considering that around 60% of the population admit to having cheated on their partners at some stage in their lives I'd imagine it's highly likely that you are friends with someone "like that."

Speculation. It would depend on how many friends I have, if any at all.

[wannaBe]

"I'd never be able to be friends with a person like that." considering that around 60% of the population admit to having cheated on their partners at some stage in their lives I'd imagine it's highly likely that you are friends with someone "like that."

My personal view is that anyone is capable of having an affair. Not that anyone is capable of being a serial cheat, but that anyone is capable of cheating on their partner in the "right" circumstances. Many of course never will, but many will never have the opportunity, because not everyone goes looking for an affair, but if your life was in a shit place and you were unhappy/going through a rough patch and someone came along to make you feel differently, I would lay money on the fact that far more people would respond than think they would. And often it's the people who are adamant that they would never cheat that end up doing just that, because they are so adamant that they fail to see the warning signs until it's too late and they're caught up in something they never intended to be.

When I was younger I saw life as completely black and white. But I've seen too much of it now and realise that there are several shades of grey in between (and no I am not referring to that hideous book.) ;)

[RunRabbit]

Yes, because no one can think something is wrong without feeling superior because they haven't done it.

[JanineStHubbins]

I wonder what the air is like up there on the moral high ground. Bracing, I suspect.

[RunRabbit]

monicalewinski I'd find it disturbing if my friends had never lied to me, but, there are things you can overlook things you cannot.

I'm not going to care if my friend lied about eating the last of the cornflakes. But to intentionally do something that you know will hurt/shatter/destroy someone else and not care and do it anyway is on an entirely different level. I just cannot have that sort of person in my life.

Everyone has qualities they wouldn't be able to tolerate in a friend. Everyone has their boundaries and lines they draw in the sand about what is acceptable for them. And what I've written in bold. That's my line.

[DeathByLaundry]

I was the OW. It was awful. He was married, unhappily -they made a mistake marrying to try and fix things in a stale relationship, they wanted completely different things in life, and she had already had an affair. No justification, but relevant nonetheless.

We were incredibly strongly attracted to one another but he had strong feelings of obligation to try and salvage the marriage and I was morally horrified with myself. I ended up a complete mess, almost failed my degree and found myself on antidepressants. He got into a similarly bad way and ended up signed off work for a long period of time. We cut all contact and tried to get on with our own lives.

A year or so after we'd first met he got back in touch. He'd separated from his wife and I'd had time to pull myself together. Everything fell into place and over a decade later we're married with two children and usual ups and downs excepted we're really happy. His ex has married someone who is much more suited to her and nobody has looked back.

I'm sad that I'm judged on that happening. It was awful and but for the children I genuinely would change it all if I could. I hated myself so much for what I was involved in that I got ill.

I don't think these things are black and white

[AchyFox]

You mean an OW.

I kept trying to read your post working out how she was the OW your DH had.

LTB if you still feel aggrieved.

[monicalewinski]

I'd never be able to be friends with a person like that.

It's not about what you would or wouldn't do RunRabbit, it's about the holier than thou deigning of your friendship.

How do you know that each an every one of your friends has never lied about anything? Do you make them do a lie detector first?

[RunRabbit]

dementedma I see so you think, I think I'm an Angel because I wouldn't do something that I know full well would cause another person pain?

Riiiiight

Your bar must be set pretty damn low.

[StandingInLine]

I've been the OW but only in the sense he was married but seperated. Of course that made no difference when his ex got herself pregnant with another mans child (who'd scarpered )and wanted partner back to play happy families but he refused.
We're a normal couple, been together for 6 years and have 2 wonderful kids. She still to this day says I split them up forgetting the fact she'd moved on a lot quicker than partner.
But ,just to humour her ,I say that I would do it all again for the family I have now. I wouldn't regret my kids.

[dementedma]

runrabbit mind your halo doesn't slip and choke you. Oh, and aren't those judgy pants giving you a wedgy?

[CarolPrankster]

Its just not that black and white though, real life.
I can understand why some women are so anti the OW but its not that simple. DH's exW refers to me as the OW but he had been split from her for 6 months before I met him, technically they were married but living in separate houses and exchanging spiteful emails. She is utterly vile to me and slags me off to anyone who will listen making it hard for me to actually have any sympathy for her.

[FudgefaceMcZ]

She didn't really have an affair though, did she, she wasn't married. He had an affair. She could well be perfectly nice, but there is no way he gets out of being a dick since he could have actually been honest with his wife and broken up before shagging about, but instead chose to hedge his bets and come out with 'wifey doesn't understand me' bollocks and may well do it again to her. I would stay friends with her so you can support her when that happens. I'd probably dump your husband too but I see you're not even considering that, just blaming the woman he used to cheat on you.