To think this isn't what apprenticeships were designed for?

[VivaLeBeaver]

Just seen a job advertised for an apprentice waiter/waitress at Pizza Hut. 30 hours a week for £110. They can get round national minimum wage as its an apprenticeship.

I just think its a disgrace. Does it really take a minimum of a years apprenticeship to learn how to take orders and carry pizza? Its hardly training to be a plumber, etc. They do get to do an nvq in customer services but still.

I feel so sorry for young people today trying to find work, its depressing.

[OldDaddy]

Apprenticeships should lead to quantifiable skills - such as plumbing,carpentry, IT etc etc. With all due respect to waiters that job needs training not an apprenticeship...

[JoinYourPlayfellows]

Sure, plenty of people don't have any cop on.

But teaching them basic cop on doesn't require an apprenticeship, and it cheapens the very idea of an apprenticeship to allow apprenticeships in things like Not Being a Dick and Turning Up to Work on Time.

Some people need to be taught these very basic skills (I know, I've taught some of them :) ) but apprenticeships are for learning advanced technical skills on the job from an expert.

When you finish an apprenticeship you should be a SKILLED worker.

Being able to use a till,or stack shelves, or serve customers might make you marginally more employable by a retail outlet, but it doesn't make you a skilled worker.

[Ragwort]

And let's be honest here, that's basically all customer service comes down to - a decent attitude to other human beings and a bit of nous.

Join - I would love to agree with you on that point but I can assure you that sadly a lot of people just don't have 'a bit of nous'. I made a bad choice of a training course once and was with people who had no idea how to smile, say good morning, offer to take someone's coat, make polite conversation etc etc. They actually had to learn those skills.

I am constantly amazed at the sort of things I think are 'basic common sense' are completely alien to a lot of people. .

[JoinYourPlayfellows]

"are you honestly telling me that every single retail store and restaurant you visit you are served in a professional manner?"

Um no.

But that doesn't mean that the people who served me needed to serve an apprenticeship to learn how to do it.

"finding it harder and harder to recruit people with the right attitude to customer service"

Apprenticeships are for learning technical skills and crafts by learning from someone who has those skills already.

They are not for learning "the right attitude to customer service".

And let's be honest here, that's basically all customer service comes down to - a decent attitude to other human beings and a bit of nous.

[Ragwort]

I disagree Join - are you honestly telling me that every single retail store and restaurant you visit you are served in a professional manner? . Why are there so many threads on Mumsnet complaining about customer service? Lots of people just don't seem able to 'learn these skills on the job' - I know, to my cost, having worked for years in retail and hospitality and finding it harder and harder to recruit people with the right attitude to customer service. .

[JoinYourPlayfellows]

"Until the economy swings around so that there are more jobs than people available to do them, low-skill roles are going to stay cheap."

But it's government policy to make sure that never happens.

So unless we get a change in government, then low-skill roles are always going to be cheap.

And now we have a government making them even cheaper by allowing companies to pay less than NMW by offering bogus "apprenticeships" instead of real entry-level jobs.

"front of house work in a busy restaurant does take skill btw!"

Not the kind of skill you need to do an apprenticeship to learn.

That's the kind of job you learn on the job, being paid your full wage and with no need to go to school for completely fucking pointless NVQs.

[Parsnipcake]

They do exist. I live in Manchester and my teens have had numerous part time jobs, from washing up to delivering leaflets, cafe and bar work, chugging (!)McDonald's , call centre, I don't see why there is an issue with teens starting at entry level on a low wage , the competent ones do progress and the incompetent ones just get a new job when they get sacked!
IMO, shops like Hollister are the worst. They offer zero hour contracts but insist the young person buys new clothes every season, but by calling them 'models' seem to get away with awful employment practices.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Those jobs still exist Viva. They wont be advertised in the Job Centre or newspapers - I doubt you got any of your summer/PT jobs you mention by filling in an application form? - so some initiative and knocking on doors is required. But they do exist.

[VivaLeBeaver]

But having one person sat on their bum watching Jeremy Kyle isn't the only alternative is it?

You could have one person actually having a nmw job or more likely a few student types sharing a job. There doesn't seem to be part time work for youngsters anymore. When I was a teenager there were loads of part time jobs to fit round school/college. I did fruit picking, I did cleaning, I did bar work and shop work. I waitressed in the holidays, my brother worked on a farm. All before the age of 18. This sort of stuff gave me a great work ethic, customer service skills, work experience, etc.

There's nothing for teens now. Even the local shop won't employ under 18s as its too much hassle if they're on the till and someone wants to buy beer.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

It's a buyers' market. Until the economy swings around so that there are more jobs than people available to do them, low-skill roles are going to stay cheap. Agree that, in this context, 'apprenticeship' is a version of the youth opportunity schemes of the past but the alternative - sitting home doing nothing - is arguably a worse option.

[annieorangutan]

*in my area

[annieorangutan]

I just went on apprentices.org.uk and they are all 37.5 or 40 hours for £107 a week in every single subject area.

[annieorangutan]

Choc - Even with things like nurseries, the bowling alley, shops etc? Thats strange here they are all 40 as a lot of my friends have had to do them and they have been done in lots of my workplaces.

[aquashiv]

Its an absolute disgrace. Just a way to keep the youth of the unemployment figures as we have the one of the highest rates in the Western World. Make my blood boil we are short changing our children and not preparing them for the world of work. Just making them feel more disenfranchised.

[soontobeburns]

I got my nvq level 2 in customer services but it was free and run as an optional course when I was in full time nmw work in a call centre. The course was 2 hours a week (which I got paid for as on the job) and I had a listening to call assessment and portfolio. It also only took 3 months.

Having to do a year on an apprenticeship wage for this is shocking and does scream of cheap labour.

[Ragwort]

front of house work in a busy restaurant does take skill btw! - I totally agree with that comment; how often on Mumsnet do we have threads complaining about lousy service in restaurants and retail?

Customer service is a skill, sadly not everyone has what it takes and maybe these training schemes if run properly would help young people learn and develop into the sort of employees that employers want to take on full time.

[gordyslovesheep]

nothing to do with school - a child on an MA has left school

If it is an apprenticeship the person who does it should be gaining nationally recognised qualifications in areas such as customer service - as well as maths and English continuing until at GCSE C level

This may be via block release, day release to college

MA's are not just about trades - business admin, retail etc have apprenticeship programs and qualifications

The apprenticeship system is far from perfect don't get me wrong but it doesn't make this post completely without merit - front of house work in a busy restaurant does take skill btw!

[ReluctantBeing]

School will like this. It means they can, on paper, put a child down as continuing in education, when, in fact, that child is working for a pittance.

[Chocamochalatte]

In our area they all have to attend college one day a week... This is with all of the different learning providers not just one...

[furlinedsheepskinjacket]

agree yts under new name - I was one too mama

[mrsjay]

I did get a job out of my YTS too so wasn't all bad I trained to be a nursery nurse but I guess this is what these modern aprretichips (spelling again ) I suppose not all young people want to go to further education but it just seems that they are NVqs for everything

[TalkingToTheWoodlice]

I'm finding it very difficult to find entry level jobs that aren't apprenticeships. I have a degree so I'm not entitled to take up an apprenticeship (well I could but I'd have to pay for the privilege). I've been out of the workforce for some time looking after the dc so I don't have up to date experience to apply for graduate positions. I feel caught in a depressing trap.

[MammaTJ]

Seems to be very much the the YTS (Youth Training Scheme, for those not old enough to remember) that I had to undergo to keep the unemployment figures down under Maggie era.

I was lucky, in that it did lead to a full time job and ultimately a career.

Some were not so lucky. They were variable. There were employers who would just use it as a free pair of hands and there were those who used the chance to train the younster, so by the time they were at the end, they were very employable and useful to the company who had bothered.


I guess this not so new scheme will have the same.

[annieorangutan]

choc - They dont have to go to college the assessors come to them so they do a full 40 here. Its 2.68 an hour.

[DoYouLikeMyBaubles]

Spot on.


My brother got offered an apprenticeship in the local Nissa. I'm sure as a full time job this is great for some people, but they wanted him to work 12 hour shifts - same as regular staff - for a pittance and exactly what training would it give him

I'm all for apprenticeships, I was an apprenticeship care assistant and it got me on the job ladder - although I don't see why there's an apprenticeship to be a carer because anyone (without a criminal record) can become one.