fathers access rights? (posting for traffic)

[WorriedFriend2013]

namechanged in case friends wife is on here. posting in AIBU for traffic.

basically, my good friend has left his wife, about 4 weeks ago. They have a 1 year old dd. His wife has always been a bit controlling and 'odd', and has slowly driven away the majority of his friends and family over the 4 years they have been together. They had an argument last month and she said some disgusting things about his family, which kind of woke him up to what she was really like.

They split and she is now living at her mothers, with their dd. She has not allowed him to see dd since. Obviously he is totally heartbroken over this, as his daughter is his whole world. He has suggested various things eg, only seeing his daughter in a public place like a cafe/playgym, her supervising them at the house etc, but she is having none of it.

Her latest thing is that 'she is scared to see him', when there is zero history of violence/abuse from him. He is now terrified that she will lie and say he has hurt her or dd in order to stop contact for good.

He has made an appointment with a solicitor for the end of the week, but we just wanted to know, basically, is there any chance that she could keep his dd from him for good? If she lies will they just believe her even if there is no evidence?
She has said she will do everything in her power to make sure he and his family never see dd again, but does she actually have this power?

[pinkballetflats]

Yes, he can make an application through the courts. No, false accusations of domestic abuse will likely not prevent him from seeing his daughter, but it could cost him more time and money. If she is saying that she will do everything in her power to prevent DD seeing him or his family again than she is a very silly woman - if it's in writing, unless she has extremely good reasons for saying this then it's not going to sit well with a judge.

Tell your friend to not engage in goading, only do things that are in the best interests of his daughter and do not get into arguments - leave it to solicitors - she's made her position clear.

Also, you are only getting one side of the story....this could be one of my ex-H's friends writing this because these were the things that were said about me while all the time it was him who was refusing to see our LO. Sometimes things aren't what they seem.

Best to stay out of it as much as possible and be sympathetic but keep your distance - these things can get extremely ugly.

[SigmundFraude]

pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gender-symmetry-with-gramham-Kevan-Method%208-.pdf

A little light reading on the subject of DV and gender distortion.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

I agree that there should be more accuracy in the reports. but I personally believe that the truth would shock some of those on here.

[FreudiansSlipper]

No it is not too much to ask But it should be reported more accurately

One reason why these figures come about is victim of crime reports partner, partner also accuses the victim of being violent and they often have proof as in marks on their body, they press charges or threaten too it all effects how crime is reported as they too have had violence inflicted on them. This is often because a victim has hit back (it is beleived that women are more likely to fight back now than what they once were). are they less of a victim for doing so. Look how often repeat crimes take place, hospital admissions, victim fleeing home with nothing and goes into hiding (if they can find somewhere) and of course deaths

men are victims too there is support, there should be more support for both men and women and more understanding of dv how complex situations can be but looking at a few figures is not showing the extent of how bad the situation is

[fifi669]

minimonty you're pretty much bang on. The law doesn't side with mothers, but the individuals that decide do.

I read an awful case in OZ where a mum wouldn't let the child see it's dad. He went down the legal route, she made allegations which were proven false, tried every trick and then flatly said if you allow him contact I'll slag him off to the child. The court decided that would be bad for the child and that the child would suffer more being away from its mum rather than dad. He's now not allowed to make contact til the child is 18. How messed up is that?

[BoneyBackJefferson]

Freudian

Tell me what truth that I am supposed to see.
I have not said that women do not suffer more DV, I have not said that the men that commit these crimes are nice or that they had reason or any of the other excuses that are trotted out.

What I am saying is that 40% of DV is committed against men by their partner, that they are not listened too and that many of them are reported to the police by the perpetrator of the DV.

I have quoted stats before, given links to the stats and reports only to be told (on here) that they are not valid because its from a "men's rights group".

It has happened on this thread.

All I want is for survivors of DV/DA to be able to step forward and be believed. Is that really too much to ask?

[FreudiansSlipper]

it is not jsut womens groups that produce these stats, read all of the information on womens aid not just snippets

you can manipulate the information you want to give out reading through reports and the stats that give you more stats you see the truth

[Strumpetron]

Not sure why the statistics found by a mens rights campaign group are being shot down. It's in their best interests to find relevant information and provide stats that concern themselves. Are we supposed to ignore ones that women's groups have studied as well?

[BoneyBackJefferson]

FreudiansSlipper

I provided a small piece of information from womensaid in response to the comment that it was men's rights group that produced the stats.

"many perpetrators (mainly men) will also accuse their partner of being violent, will press or try to press charges(very few will admit they are wrong)"

But this is just as true if you take "mainly men" out of your sentence. But of course it comes from a group that are protecting males so it must be a lie.

[MiniMonty]

Tut Tut Tut...
This debate is so old fashioned and so out of date.
So LACKING in knowledge of what actually goes in British courts every day of the week.

What happens is this:
Old white men always (and it's always) side with the Mother in all and any residence and contact disputes.
This happens 100% of the time.

It's easy to check - do it.

Men are discriminated against in court 100% of the time and many children are ordered to live with a bad outcome.

Many committed and excellent fathers fight and fight and then lose and lose. Many children suffer because many, many women are keen to play their kids as pawns in a mental game of nastiness.

Many women are guilty of this - but on they go because they know that the courts will generally slap men down and give a "mother" anything she asks for.

Tut Tut Tut.

When will society properly make a stand for the idea that a child needs two parents ?

[Sinful1]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing I know, but he should have taken his DD with him when he left.

and would now probably be in a holding cell for kidnapping a child if he had.

short of getting a sex change and legally being declared a woman though, he's pretty fucked at this point.


Why on earth should he have taken his child with him? Worra you cannot possibly know from the limited information given who the child's main carer is and how damaging that could potentially be. HE left, he doesn't get to high handedly remove children too.

Interesting, man leaves abusive relationship, it's his choice to leave and has no right to the child.

woman leaves abusive relationship, of course she should take the child it's her right and duty to protect it.

[FreudiansSlipper]

because it more often than not is, but not always i would never say men are not the victims

like i said dv relationships are often very complex, i have worked with women that could not even see they were the victim as they gave as good as they got that is what they believed, until the level of violence stepped up and they feared for their life

[SigmundFraude]

'often the victim will start to act in a violent way but there is always always a perpetrator'

Yes, and it's almost always considered to be male, 'he must have done something for her to lash out at him', 'she was scared' etc. If I had a quid for every time I've heard/read that!

[caruthers]

Choosing to believe just the statistics that back up your own belief and disregarding all other statistics isn't really fair is it?

Trying to convince an ever more enlightened public that it's just a male on female issue isn't going to go far.

DV is horrible and women are as capable and as active at perpetrating it as men are, increasingly more reports suggest the trend is rising.

Punish the crime and stop trying to just pin a label on it.

[FreudiansSlipper]

you provided a small piece of information from womensaid

if you read the reports and look at them in full they give you a very different story. many perpetrators (mainly men) will also accuse their partner of being violent, will press or try to press charges (very few will admit they are wrong) and if their partner has tried to fight back and often they will they may have evidence to prove this (bruises, scratches, bite marks) this is why the stats are hard to go by and why you need to read them fully

dv relationships can be very complex, often the victim will start to act in a violent way but there is always always a perpetrator

[SigmundFraude]

'What's the point in arguing?'

Loads, the tide is very slowly turning.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

kawliga

I have provided information from womensaid, a non mens rights group and you still argue that 40% of DV victims are not men. Just because the stats do not suit your belief does not mean that they are not correct.

Yes the stats are incomplete.
Yes the stats could be more detailed.
But the stats are published by male and female groups against DV.

"but women in that survey said many other important things which Parity chose to keep quiet about" I suspect that the same could be said for the figures for male on female DV, but it doesn't stop the numbers being correct.
How many times does someone need to be hit by their partner for it to be DV?
Or are the victims of DV to be held responsible for the actions of those that are violent?

[Theworldisending]

What's the point in arguing?

Men bad.

Here's a stat.

Male suicide rates are on average 3-5 times higher than female rates and men aged 30-44 are the group with the highest rate.

But that's from The Samaritans. So I don't believe it.

[kawliga]

Boney the link provided upthread was that "More than 40% of victims of domestic violence are male, says a study by the men's rights campaign group Parity."

Obviously Parity is drawing upon the British Crime Survey, but women in that survey said many other important things which Parity chose to keep quiet about. Groups like Parity only quote the stats which seem to show men in the most favourable light. Fair enough, that's what you'd expect them to do as a mens rights group.

As to child abuse, there's a great book called Protecting the Gift by the same author as the Gift of Fear: in his professional experience men are more likely to abuse children than women. But that's from evidence in the US, and I'm prepared to believe that the UK stats are different.

[SigmundFraude]

'some women are very dangerous and violent needless to say but they are comparatively rare'

According to the NSPCC women are responsible for half of the physical abuse suffered by children. I'll look up those stats for you tomorrow.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

womensaid to my knowledge are not a mens rights group.
but I can see that you won't except anything other than men rarely suffer DV or DA.

OP, I hope that you get this sorted, you sound like a very good friend.

[caruthers]

Ignoring the derailing. I hope the op takes some of the very good advice on this thread and passes it on to her friend.

[kawliga]

The point being that it is possible to spin the BCS stats in many different directions. Men's rights groups pick up on certain data, ignoring the other data. Probably women's rights groups do the same. Statistics are never going to tell the whole story. More reliable is the book a poster mentioned upthread from evidence of people who actually work in DV. The Gift of Fear is another good book (written by a man, not a feminist, in case anybody is averse to feminists) - he is in the business of predicting threats and he will pick the man as the threat in most cases (not all cases, obviously, some women are very dangerous and violent needless to say but they are comparatively rare).

[NotYoMomma]

so much for not derailing the op's thread

[kawliga]

This is also from the British Crime Survey statistics:
Women are the overwhelming majority of the most heavily abused group. Among people subject to four or more incidents of domestic violence from the perpetrator of the worst incident (since age 16), 89 per cent were women. Thirty-two per cent of women had experienced domestic violence from this person four or more times compared with only 11 per cent of men.