To not want my kids to have these blood tests?

[littlebitgreen]

Hello,

I'm new to posting on this forum, but am interested in some of your thoughts on something.

I am having a brief stint in Australia with my husband and 2 children. One is at school and the other in nursery (ages 5 and 3). I'm originally fom Australia so wanted to spend a bit of time with my family over here,

In Australia, they are very strict on immunisations, and to receive the government's child care rebate to assist with costs ( which you get you are a permanent resident and if both parents do some paid work - it's not means tested) then you have to show that your children have been immunised. I'm absolutely happy with that and support the principle. My two hadnt had hep b needles in the UK, so are having those now.

The problem I'm having is the chicken pox vaccine is on the list of compulsory vaccines . My two have definitely had chicken pox, so don't need the vaccine. The doctor also said he wouldn't want them to have the needle if they've had the virus. But to prove they've had chicken pox I have to take them for blood tests to check their immunity, which I'd rather not do, as both are terrified of needles and it seems unnecessary when I know they've had it. Why would I lie?

I suppose what frustrates me about the whole thing is i could have just asked the doctor to sign a form that says I'm a 'conscientious objector' to immunising my kids, then I wouldn't have had to do any of this and still could have received the rebate.but I couldn't bring myself to do that!

Anyway, I guess there's probably not much I can do, but thoughts are welcome!

[imip]

Interesting yet, I have read that the australian vaccine is only 70% effective.... Wasn't discouraged by gp on that basis though. I wonder what cp is like. Eg, does it change a lot like the flu?

[YouHaveAGoodPoint]

Tortoise. That's an informative post

[yetanotherworry]

imip, when we were in Oz on a temporary basis I spoke to the immunisation dept about the CP vaccine. They recommended that we didn't vaccinate dd because their research shows that the vaccine does not cover all strains and we would be better off in the UK with her having had no vaccine so she could catch it properly as a child. They said that the Ozzie vaccine might give her some cover against the UK strain (a) it would not be full protection so it was still likely that she would get it and (b) she would not have the booster. Both of these scenarios would make it likely that she would be more susceptible to catching CP as an adult.

Jitney, There is a huge problem with hepatitis in South East Asia and since Oz has a lot of SE Asians it is a problem, although your doctor did not phrase it very nicely. Its similar to the UK where we have a lot of immigrants from Pakistan/India where TB is rife - our local maternity hospital used to vaccinate all babies from these vulnerable populations.

[imip]

Interesting thread. As an australian living in the uk I was aware that this could be an issue and have had my dcs immunised from chicken pox. It has taken a lot of sweet talking to explain this to my gp so that they would prescribe the vaccine. Then it is £50 a needle. My other plan was to ensure that the gp would write that they had chicken pox in the red book. When dc 1 was at nursery, a child was seriously ill in hospital with complications from cp, it involved having a lumbar puncture and the mum recounted the experience to me. I decided to go down the vaccine route.

Must get dd4 immunised. She is now 20 month old. Nurse told me though that they will need to vaccines, and they have only had one. 4dcs, £400 quid .

Apparently the uk is one of the only western countries that does not immunise against cp.

[Tortoiseonthehalfshell]

Jitney, you understand that it's not "child benefit" that can be withheld, it's the child care subsidy. So parents who haven't got their kids vaccinated will pay more for childcare, if they work outside the home? Not that their welfare payments will stop, or anything.

It's like compulsory voting - the Australian government takes an 'opt in' approach. You CAN refuse to vote, but you have to at least show up at the polling booth (or write a letter explaining why you can't); thus, the people who are deciding not to vote on moral grounds, rather than just apathy, can still exercise that right, but it means that most Australians do have their say.

The people who are opposed to vaccinations on ethical grounds or because they misunderstand the science can still choose not to vaccinate. They just need to fill in some paperwork. But most parents who don't vaccinate, don't do so because it's a faff and they can't be arsed lugging their kids to the GP; so this scheme closes that gap a bit, and helps ensure crowd immunity.

[SavoyCabbage]

It's not compulsory as you can fill in the conscientious objection form, which is what I did for my youngest. The rule didn't apply to my oldest as it only applied to children after a certain date. It does give you a kick up the bum. My friend has just taken her dd as she's starting school in January and she had to attach her record to the form. She just hasn't got round to it.

When my oldest dd started school there was a starting school grant that everybody got for uniform etc. That was good I thought but its been axed now.

I think the supplying your books etc for school works for the most part as most people do it. It's the norm. We have to take tissues too. a box a term.

There is far less of the nanny state. you have children, you need to earn the money for them to learn to swim. You need to feed them and nobody is going to tell you they can't have chocolate in their lunchbox. Which I like. (but my dds best friend has hundreds and thousands sandwiches every day!)

It's just when the parents don't do the right thing. I gave my whole pencil case to a girl once when I was on supply. The school were paying me over $300 to be there for one day and she has to borrow a pencil every time she has to write something down.

I'm sure if one of my children forgot their lunch they would ring me and ask me to bring it in. There is nowhere to buy food but its definitely not the case in all schools. I've sent children to the office and I have asked the teacher next door when this has happened to be told that it happens often and they won't starve etc.

[StUmbrageinSkelt]

The schools I know of around here in a low socio-economic area usually have a loaf, margarine and vegemite in the fridge to provide lunch.

The immunisation policy is to make people make a decision either way.

But carry on with your Australia bashing. I'm sure there's no hungry children in the UK and I'm sure that your country has every social need covered.

[tryingtoleave]

Having grown up here, it seems totally normal to me that you would provide your children's stationary and lunch. The school used to lend us our textbooks though. There is a 'back to school' grant to help lower income families pay for those costs.

[tryingtoleave]

Wow - you seem unnecessarily agitated Jitney.

I don't think the chicken pox vaccination is actually compulsory (just encouraged). It is fairly new. One of my children doesn't have it and we have never had an issue. When I was a bit late getting dd's 4 yo immunisations done, I got a letter from centrelink telling me I would lose my rebate if I didn't get it done soon or do the letter thing. So I hurried us off to the dr to get it done. I think it is a good system to get flaky people like me moving. You don't have to get immunisations, you just have to make sure you have thought about it. You won't lose your benefits either, if you do it properly. A GP can't withhold your benefits. If they refused to sign the form you could just go to another one - you aren't limited to a particular GP here like you are in England.

When my ds forgot his lunch, his teacher lent him a couple of dollars to go and get something from the tuck shop.

[PassAFist]

It all sounds very similar to Canada. We also have the conscientious objector form and if you want your kids to go to school without their immunizations then you have to sign that form. No fees involved for shots though and the immunizations are not linked to any government benefits.

We also provide the school supplies! At the beginning of the year you get a list of all the stuff your child will need but it isn't just pens and pencils, also kleenex, paper towel and even dry erase markers. Periodically throughout the schol year a note will come home that the class needs kleenex or glue or something and you send it in.

There are no school lunches either, kids either go home for lunch or bring their lunch but at our school I know there are snacks in the office so that if a child has no lunch the teacher will send them to the office to get something. We also have a free breakfast club program which provides breakfast to anyone that wants it and is funded by the school council.

[SavoyCabbage]

Yes there are no school lunches, everybody brings their food from home which has it's advantages. I like the system and there are no lunchbox police.

If a child does not bring anything it becomes a problem. There is no school lunch to give them.

[ICameOnTheJitney]

No...it's a tiny proportion now and to be frank, the lack of social care for the indigenous population in general makes me doubt that these rules surrounding immunization are much to do with them at all.

[bumperella]

I assumed was a slightly bigger % than that, hence more pressure to make sure people (kids) weren't falling through the net when it came to immunisation programmes.

[ICameOnTheJitney]

Savoy my DH is Aussie and he told me that lunch isn't such a big part of the school day and that most kids bring packed...is that right?

[ICameOnTheJitney]

Bump I'm not an expert either but the Indigenous population of Australia makes up for only 2% of the entire country's residents. I know that they tend to be more difficult to target....but in my opinion a lot of that is due to shit funding. Women out there (Indigenous ones) are far more likely to die in childbirth than any white woman...and the children in the more remote areas are more likely to suffer from preventable illnesses.

[bumperella]

Savoy, that is shocking!

[bumperella]

Jitney - I thought indigenous peoples were more likely to "slip through the net" of healthcare than others, and were a bigger proportion of population than any UK group, but am absolutely NOT pretending to be an expert on that -am happy to be educated!

[quoteunquote]

I would get them to take the test, and use it as opportunity to work on their needle fear, because there maybe an emergency situation one day where it would be advantage not to have resistance.

[SavoyCabbage]

Yes and all pencils glue etc.

When I was teaching in Sydney the school was near a women's refuge and I got a boy in my class who lived there. He was six.

When he started, I sent another boy up to the office to get his maths book photocopied so the new boy could do some maths.

It was the talk of the staff room - how kind I was! Obviously it had never crossed my mind to just let him sit there!

I have done supply in schools here where the children come with NO food and there is no system to help them. So you are in a room with a child who has nothing to eat for six hours. I'm always too scared to give them my apple in case of the allergy situation.

[ICameOnTheJitney]

And do poorer kids miss out on the educational/arts opportunities then?

[ICameOnTheJitney]

savoy do you buy their books too?

[SavoyCabbage]

It's definitely harder to get the objection form done than it is to have the injection! The injections are not free though of course.

Children are denied educational opportunities for financial reasons here. If you don't pay for trips or swimming etc you don't go. All extra stuff you pay for so recorder group even though its run by a class teacher, going to athletics if you qualify to represent your school/area and it might be 10000 miles away.

[ICameOnTheJitney]

It's a hardline approach which penalizes immigrants and also those who choose to not get their children immunized...whatever you think of that...it's rather worrying if you ask me. But then when I was over there in 2005 with baby DD, the doctor told me she needed hep injections "Because an Asian child might bite her when she starts kindy." Er....ok.

[breatheslowly]

Ok, I take it back, if children are excluded from educational opportunities, I don't think it is a good system. Making apathetic people do something (immunisation or declaration as an objector) seems like a good idea.

[SavoyCabbage]

I had this exact problem. My dc both had chicken pox before we arrived. The oldest who is now nine but was five at the time was allowed to go about her business in the normal way but the youngest fell foul of this law.

I refused to get her immunised and I filled in the form too but she wasn't allowed to go to daycare. They wanted proof that she had had it.

The conscientious objector form doesn't seem to work as a system anyway as its definitely on my dds record that she is not immunised.

When it was time for her to start school it was on the records that her immunisation stuff wasn't complete, which it wasn't, and she wasn't supposed to be allowed to start but I just ignored it all and took her.