my ds 7 spend £700 on squirrel nuts

[Jellybeanz1]

We had massive shock when the bills kept coming in on an free ipad game for virtual squirrel nuts. Im delighted to see that on the news this morning that the gaming industry are going to put protection in place by law. We challenged this amount being taken from our account and it was eventually fully recovered ( 2 separate attempts to get it all back). I talked to my db recently and found out his ds had done something similar at young age and he hadn't challenged it. Just wanted to make sure everyone was querying this if it happens to them.

[Jenny70]

The reason I think it is "waiting to catch you out" is that I have never put CC details into my tablet, never purchased anything with it. But it has accessed by CC details through google from a purchase made yrs ago. I find that devious.

Also, google play has no option to remove payment details, you have to use a separate program to remove them... so any purchase you then need to follow with a second program so the details are not stored by google play.... I find that a trap for people forgetting to clear their details each time.

It is not just a child that can defraud your account, you can have the device stolen and the payment settings used... I just think there should be a clear box which you can opt into or out of saying "store these details for future use" like many websites do. If you are confident and want the convenience of it being stored, then great. If not, simply uncheck the box....

[Bogeyface]

I didnt see it as a massive bollocking, just that people were saying that she was responsible for supervising her child and as she didnt, she is partly to blame for what happened. £700 is a lot of money, this wasnt just a one off so it calls into question not only how long was he on this game unsupervised, but what else was he accessing without the OPs knowledge? This isnt just about the money but about a childs safety when accessing the internet.

And suggesting that it is unfair for saying you should have read the small print...well you should! Why is it that people will scour an Ebay ad for an item costing £5 for every tiny detail, but will happily tick the "I confirm I have read and agree to the T&C" box when putting in their CC details on the internet without so much as glancing at them?

I am sorry but if you are going to be so blasé about your financial security then you must accept a level of responsibility when a company or individual takes advantage of that. I am not saying that what they do is right, but I am saying that if you dont take steps to protect yourself, and that includes properly supervising your child, then you have to take a share of the blame.

[JCDenton]

I can see both sides. While there's something to be said for restricting or even banning kids who aren't old enough to know better than be wary of these games (I wouldn't allow them to be installed on my device tbh) some of them are rather cynical.

There are plenty of cheap devices that play actual games instead of 'free' ipad games that aren't far off being malware.

[hardboiledeggsandnuts]

letting young kids play unsupervised on ipads etc is just asking for trouble. when I was a child I had to make do with just a zx spectrum until I was 14.

[Rooners]

'but will happily tick the "I confirm I have read and agree to the T&C" box when putting in their CC details on the internet without so much as glancing at them?'

There wasn't one as far as I remember.

If you are saying that there is something wrong in this set up though, and that not protecting ourselves from this makes us partly to blame then that is a bit, well, victim blaming isn't it?

[diddl]

"If you are saying that there is something wrong in this set up though, and that not protecting ourselves from this makes us partly to blame then that is a bit, well, victim blaming isn't it?"

Possibly depends if you think that an ipad is for adults tbh, & not for kids to play on.

[pianodoodle]

When the kids buy something this way, are they aware they're doing it?

[Bogeyface]

I am so sick of the phrase "Victim blaming" being thrown about when the phrase should be "expecting people to take responsibility for their own actions"!

No, the system isnt perfect so it makes sense to protect oneself against any possible abuse of it.

We know there are thieves out there, so we take all reasonable precautions against them. If you leave your front door wide open and you get robbed then your insurance wont pay out, because they expect you to take certain measures to protect your property. This is the same. The OP didnt take reasonable measures to make sure her account couldnt be accessed by a child, so she bears some level of responsibility for what happened.

Blaming a woman for being raped is victim blaming. Saying it in this instance is just not wanting to accept that you fucked up and are now paying the price.

[BuskersCat]

bogey said everything I wanted to, far more eloquently than I ever could.

[Rooners]

'The OP didnt take reasonable measures to make sure her account couldnt be accessed by a child, so she bears some level of responsibility for what happened.'

It depends what you call reasonable measures and this has been my point all along - which you seemed to agree with in part just before my last post:

'I am not saying that what they do is right'

[Rooners]

In fact it was ME who clicked on the 'buy now' box the first couple of times, and entered my password (which ds doesn't know) without realising it had somehow garnered my card details without my consent - only a couple of quid, and I took responsibility for this obviously but it was still set up in a way that fooled me as an adult.

I thought it was still using his voucher credit. I'd no reason to think it would be doing anything else.

[kali110]

Wouldn't let my child on my phone unsupervised. Think it was the moms fault and shes lucky she didn't have to pay the bill.
You can remove the in app purchasing of set it so after you've made the purchase there isn't a time delay after where it doesn't ask for the password again.

[ThisWayForCrazy]

You have to put your apple password in on mine to buy anything. My kids wouldn't be able to do that.

Well the teenager would, but he wouldn't do it.

[WhizzerAndChips]

Totally agree with this, I accept that many of you will think I am very old fashioned but I seem to be alone with fortyplus in thinking that young children just shouldn't have access to the sorts of games where you can buy stuff.

I don't think you're old fashioned, I'm exactly the same. What on earth do young children need access to things like Ipads etc for anyway with apps that can buy stuff?
WTF's wrong with Leappad type stuff, you know, actual things that are suitable for children?!
Unfettered access and left to their own devices on internet/apps type stuff is asking for trouble.

[Rooners]

I don't disagree that littler children might be better off with a leappad or similar however try foisting one of those on your average 10yo and you will not be taken seriously.

There is a gap in the market for devices that are quasi-adult in their format but totally suitable for pre-teen children.

When we got him the nexus, for his 10th birthday, it was against my better judgment.

My parents wanted to buy him it - it was all he talked about for months and months before that, as several of his friends had an ipod touch and he wanted to be able to discuss the various apps and games with them.

I agree a lot of it is pointless for someone his age - it is awash with shite, especially a lot of the games (he asks me every time he downloads anything - he is never alone with it for very long) and he was upset and concerned when he bought something on it that he didn't think he could/wasn't trying to buy.

THIS is my point - it almost seems set up to test our competence and our cynicism. It tricked me twice before the one where he bought something.

It just isn't user friendly - and THAT is the problem, the deliberate attempts to get you to buy stuff in any way they can, even using fairly devious means.

I admit I have hated the nexus from the start and am considering taking it away completely - though I don't know what I'd do with it, I don't want it for myself either after my experiences with google.

Anyway as the thread is indeed about a 7yo child I will leave you to it but just thought another perspective might be interesting to some.

And if anyone can link to anything that a 10yo would embrace in this field then please do so...!

[friday16]

It just isn't user friendly - and THAT is the problem, the deliberate attempts to get you to buy stuff in any way they can, even using fairly devious means.

What's "it" in this context? The free games? How do you think the developers make money?

If you buy games and then they attempt to dun you out of more money, I think you have grounds for complaint. But I don't think it's at all reasonable to complain that things you got free try to make money by other means, any more than it's reasonable to complain that ITV has adverts or "free" holidays tend to involve being bludgeoned into buying a timeshare.

I admit I have hated the nexus from the start

So why did you buy it? The Nexus is possibly the worst choice for end users: it's an unmediated Android experience, intended really for developers so that they can run the latest release of the operating system without waiting for the tablet vendor to release their version of it.

try foisting one of those on your average 10yo and you will not be taken seriously.

What's that MN cliche? Oh yes: "No is a complete sentence". It seems being are willing to bandy it around in all sorts of contexts, but not to their children.

[Rooners]

'It' is Google. I have explained why I think this, I don't want to again.

I've also explained why I bought it - it was recommended by someone who advertised his website on here and offered to advise parents on tech choices for their children.

Also, I wanted my son to be able to talk with his peers about the things they are interested in. I didn't want this device but I thought with proper, intuitive use it might be a good compromise - more use than an ipod touch, maybe for homework minecraft (so he isn't using my PC all the time) and so on.

He's never run into that sort of trouble on my PC. He's been using it for years.

I walked into the purchase after a fair bit of research but still found myself blindsided by the way it operates.

Yes, kick me when I'm down by all means - I have admitted it was a mistake. I'm not disputing that, but I am disputing that the people in charge of google aren't charlatans.

[Rooners]

and I can CERTAINLY say no to him.

[Rooners]

This is the website and we had an email correspondence.

He was a lovely guy. I think he meant well. I thought here was the best place to get recommendations for stuff I didn't know much about.

We all make mistakes.

[Rooners]

'So why did you buy it? The Nexus is possibly the worst choice for end users: it's an unmediated Android experience, intended really for developers so that they can run the latest release of the operating system without waiting for the tablet vendor to release their version of it.'

I imagine you know a bit about this subject, but please don't assume everyone does. Obviously if I had I'd not have bought it...

and the game was pre installed. It's now been unequivocally uninstalled.

[friday16]

He's never run into that sort of trouble on my PC. He's been using it for years.

PCs: shared devices, and in 2013 most people have twigged that separate user accounts are a good idea.

Tablets: personal devices, without any serious concept of "users". Android is acquiring something vaguely like multiple users ("restricted profiles") but there are all sorts of implementation issues.

If you lent someone your phone, would you be surprised that they were able to read your email and look at the contacts in your address book? Remember: tablets are big phones, not small laptops. The operating systems are phone operating systems (with the exception of the Windows Surface, but that's hardly mainstream).

You complain about what happened to you "not being user friendly", but I think the equivalent mechanism in Apple-land is exactly user-friendly: I enter my credit card details once, and can then buy content on my laptop, my iPhone and my Apple TV without needing to re-enter the details. Now that's not what you want, because (I assume) you want to be able to have your son use a tablet registered in your name but not be able to do things that you can. But, I'm afraid, you're in the minority.

[AgentZigzag]

Getting a bit of a panning there Rooners?

I'm generalising, but I think you can only understand technology vs DC situation when you've actually got them in the (roughly) 8-15 age group. (I know there must be parents on the thread who do have them in the age group and have got a handle on the technology thing, but that doesn't go for everyone)

Having children who are older and younger means you're only imagining what you'd allow them to do, maybe missing the unique situation the impact technology as it is now can have on DC/social relationships.

I could decide to not let 12 YO DD have any of it, or let have it all unrestricted, but neither are realistic. So I try to set boundaries of checking what she's up to on it, keep reminding her of internet safety rules, be interested in what she's up to on it.

But I'm totally guessing at what I should do, and how I should even go about doing it. There isn't a right answer because we've never had computers so embedded in our lives.

It's not Rooners being lax and everything would be OK if we all just keep on the ball. There are new things on the market every day, you can't possibly keep up with it all even with an interest in this kind of thing!

We got into hot water when DD first got her phone and it was a wake up call, but even knowing what I know now, DC and the internet can be like trying to pick up mercury with a fork.

[Rooners]

Thanks, Agent. I needed someone to back me up and you have done it so well!

Friday - I get what you are saying.

We don't have separate user accounts on the PC. I think the sort of games on the nexus are kind of unique to that format, not the stuff we use on the PC - or certainly not the stuff I've seen him want to use on the PC.

I'd actually be really blimming surprised if I lent someone my phone and they could see my email because it's an old k800i and I've never looked at email on it let alone sent any...or accessed the internet from it.

I don't know much about smart phones and this is why I was so, so careful in setting ds up to use the nexus only with vouchers. I had seen a couple of threads about in app purchases and thought, ha, I shan't even enter my card details on it - only voucher codes.

Seems like there was a way around that for ye olde money hungry google bastards.

Anyway. Please try not to judge too much. I'm not a thicko. I have an IQ above 140 according to my mum but technology isn't something I am ahead of...I try to keep on an even footing with the stuff I come up against by choice though, because that's just what you do isn't it - and on this occasion I failed.

[NanooCov]

I've read the whole thread and some interesting points have been made on both sides of the argument. But do me a favour and please please stop blaming Google! You've singularly failed to recognise how Apple ID and Google accounts work. The device did not grab your details. You GAVE the device your card details when you set it up with your gmail account which is linked to every other Google functionality you use including Google Wallet. Surely that's not a difficult concept to grasp? And please don't use the "I'm not tech savvy" argument as a shield. If you're allowing your kids to use technology (and I agree it is difficult not to) then you need to educate yourself.

[Mckayz]

I have never worked out how this happens. My iphone and ipad ask for my password everytime I try to buy anything. I have not set anything up that is how they came.

So unless you tell your children your password I don't see how they can run up these bills.