To expect my 19 yr old to stand on her own two feet?

[sooze41]

We have a 19 yr old away at Uni (2nd yr) who seems to be constantly asking for money. We have always insisted she worked part time from age 16, even though she wasn't keen ( I found her the first job through a friend) because we think its important for them to take some responsibility and earn some money of their own. When she went to Uni it took her three months to find a job because she didn't fancy doing this that or the other, and in the meantime we gave her an allowance to keep her afloat, as well as topping her rent up, in fact we had to cut the allowance in half to force her into getting a job, I am sure she would happily have carried on taking money from us indefinitely! She got a job which she fits in easily with Uni as they are only in lectures three days a week, and she earns a good wage from it, but because she likes to spend a lot on clothes/make up she is always asking us for top ups. Quite honestly, I am sick of the conflict, yes we can afford it, but if she budgeted properly she wouldn't need any extra ( we already pay £100 a month towards her rent as her loan doesn't cover it). It seems like all we are good for is money, she honestly can't understand why we expect her to budget and take care with her money, she thinks that as we can afford to give it to her we should! She can't grasp that we just want her to grow up and take responsibility and not keep expecting us to bail her out, and it's a constant source of tension. Anyone dealt with this issue?

[SoonToBeSix]

I think your dd needs to budget better and you should help her with that. However I disagree that uni students should work . The time spent in actual lectures is not relevant they are supposed to be doing full time independent studying.

[pixiepotter]

Things are completely different to when most of us went to uni.These kids are investing £50k in their education.They are going to want to come out with the very best degree possible.
Distracting/tiring yourself with part time jobs could well be false economy.Similarly with the accommodation.If a studnt moves into somewhere dirty and depressing when they are just starting out, this could well lead to them feeling low and unable to give themselves the best chance.Anybody who has had anything to do with teaching will know all about 'barriers to learning'

[Slipshodsibyl]

Yes word, about 8000 assuming they can earn in the summer. Towns with higher or year round rent might be a bit higher.

[MrsOakenshield]

yes, I wouldn't worry too much about the loan - a friend has just finished paying hers off at age 33, when I first knew her she was 23 and didn't earn enough to pay it back at all, but even once she did the monthly amount was manageable - on a not-very-high-for-London wage she could still pay rent (extortionate) and other normal expenses, pay her loan and save a couple of hundred pounds a month.

What I can't understand is how a 19-year-old acquires a £30 a pop make-up habit to begin with! Rimmel all the way for us!

[5madthings]

Yanbu but you need to sit down and work out a budget with her and make sure she knows how to do it.

She is taking the mick by buying expensive clothes and make up and asking you to sub her.

Its fine for her to have a job at uni, I did and then in yr two I had ds1 and still got a good 2:1. My parents didn't help out once we had ds1, do worked and studied and I looked after ds1 and studied and we muddled through and budgeted!

University is about education but also learning life skills and how to budget and time management etc.

[5madthings]

Yanbu but yo

[Beastofburden]

5foot5- think hard before you pay for anything rather than let her get a student loan. They currently calculate that around 50% of student loans will never be paid off. I dont know if you know how that works? but basically, in any given year, you only pay anything if your salary goes above £21k (then you pay 9% of the excess over £21k). They write off the full amount after 30 years, which includes time spent having a family or doing other study. if you become disabled or medically unfit for work they write it all off right away.

What I am doing is saving the same money to help DS1 with a house deposit, that will make far more difference to his future than having a smaller student loan.

[Bonsoir]

iPhones are fantastically practical for students so I think if parents want to make that contribution to their DC, it's a really practical one. But trainers and protein shakes?! LOL

[5Foot5]

However, I'm also aware that students have very different ideas of 'normal' living standards these days, and rented houses now come with dishwashers and en suite bathrooms instead of being damp and grotty, so the rent she pays is probably much higher than I ever did

Too true! We are at the stage of going to University Open Days with DD and I have been surprised how much of the accomodation is en suite. My DNs have all started this year and wouldn't consider anything that wasn't en suite. In my first year we were expected to share a bedroom and the bathroom was shared by everyone on the corridor. The house we rented in the second year - well you certainly had to be creative to stay warm!

I must say I would feel hypocritical expecting DD to work part-time during term time given that my generation got maintenance grants. I honestly didn't know anybody who worked in term-time and I certainly didn't hand around with a rich, privileged crowds. That is just how it was in the 70s and early 80s. Same for DH.

Of course we worked in the summer holidays.

If I can afford to pay for DDs living expenses when she goes away (and I think I can) then I will do that rather than have her get a loan for them. Of course she will have to take out a loan for the tuition fees.

BUT - there will be a long conversation about budgets and making the money last.

[sparechange]

This is a really difficult one, because the worst case scenario would be that she decides to go down the route of a credit card to keep her lifestyle the same.

Another vote for it being perfectly do-able to work while at university - I had a bar job a few nights a week and it was in no way detrimental to my grades, especially as most of the shifts were at the weekends. Yes, I meant I couldn't do as many sports clubs on Saturday afternoons, but on the plus side, I could get cheaper drinks when I drunk in 'my' bar and got fed for free on the nights I worked shifts.

However, I'm also aware that students have very different ideas of 'normal' living standards these days, and rented houses now come with dishwashers and en suite bathrooms instead of being damp and grotty, so the rent she pays is probably much higher than I ever did! Ditto charity shop clothes have given way to £50 skirts from nice shops

That said, she has to cut her cloth to fit for the rest of her life, and learning that you don't spend money you haven't got is going to be the first step on that path.
Is she spending to keep up with friends, or because she just has to have the latest clothes/make up?

[whatever5]

OP have you compared the amount you give her plus the loan with the amount her university suggests that she will need to live on? If you can afford it, I would just give her the suggested amount per term (taking into account the loan) and let her deal with her finances. She would be very unreasonable to complain.

If you are giving her less than the university suggested amount (taking the loan into account) despite having plenty of money yourself then I don't really blame her for thinking you are tight.

[wordfactory]

I think the message that as a student you will have to be creative and frugal is one I intend to impress upon my DC.

Yes, I will provide financial support. But it will not provide a high standard of living. The budget is the budget. We're quite wealthy so how else am I to get them to take responsibility? I can't claim poverty.

I was with a friend the other day whose son at uni called her (from his i-phone on which she pays the contract) asking her to order some protein shakes online for him!!!!! Apparently, his gym instructor (she pays his yearly memebership) had advised him which type to buy!!!!!

She could barely look me in the eye knowing exactly what I'd be thinking!

[MrsOakenshield]

That is true, of course, and personally I'm not in favour of students having to do proper part time jobs alongside studying - when I was at uni those who did work generally did a couple of evenings a week in the union bar, something like that - plus summer holiday jobs of course. Most of my friends studied science, engineering, that kind of thing, and did pretty much 9-5 at uni, then they would have to do work at home on top.

But, what students need to understand is that their way of life has to change, and that means spending more creatively. A lot of entertainment for students is heavily subsidised - we rarely ventured much beyond the union bars and places that did discounts for students. Gigs would be my main cost, and even then never to the big venues. We hardly ever went out to eat. Clothes - maybe because I was very gothy but I rarely bought clothes in high street stores - cheap market stalls, army surplus, that kind of thing, and we wore stuff till it was in rags, pretty much. After all, uni is when you can stop giving a shit what anyone else thinks of your appearance!

They're not there to earn a living, no, but they're not children at home anymore either. I don't remember this being hard - I was so bloody happy not to be living at home (not that home was awful, just wahay! you're 18 and Can Do What You Like! kind of thing) that not having much money was neither here nor there.

[whois]

LessMissAbs agreed. The 'university experience' has been completely devalued.

I'm so grateful my parents recognise the value of academic pursuits and gave me the support to enable me to spend time enjoying my subject.

All these 'I was working and self sufficient at 12' comments are missing the point. Uni is not the time to become self sufficient in terms of money. You are there to LEARN and DEVELOP not to earn a living.

[lurkerspeaks]

Hmm. I think you need to sit down and work out a realistic budget with her.

I went in the days of loans/ grants. I got the full assessed amount from my parents and they paid to run my car(I needed transport for my course and I got a car after one of my friends was killed cycling)My grandparents also gave me a small extra allowance. Any extra cash came from loan (which was basically rent money).

I did one of the demanding degrees mentioned above and worked part time until 3rd year. It was OK and my grades weren't affected. I also worked every holiday and saved to subsidise term time.

I ate well and socialised a lot and had an expensive hobby (so I suppose the equivalent of posh clothes) but I never asked for parental handouts. If I had my mum would probably have laughed in my face and bought me pasta and tins of tomatoes.

[CostaLady]

I studied Law and managed to have a part time job at the same time. I had no choice - no parents to help out. I didn't find it hard but did get very jealous of my housemates who had generous parents and who never had to buy budget food. I don't think YABU at all and you sound like a great mum.

[Bonsoir]

"I really don't see how working full time at the same time as doing a degree is workable. Unless you produce graduates with useless degrees that are marked too easily (this is an academic concern). Its a horrible state of affairs that we have created in this country in a once excellent academic system which worked."

Indeed.

[LessMissAbs]

Ragwort I think university courses should be much shorter and much more intense. In my four year degree (many years ago grin) I had less that five hours lectures & tutorials a week

Whats the point in going to university then?

I had about that amount of teaching or less in my degree, but the point was that the lectures only guide you as to what else you are meant to learn within the subject. It is not school, you are expected to study in the library and do develop research skills. Lectures contain a tiny amount of the information required at university level education.

I and a lot of others treated it like a full time job and used the library as our base, leaving it for lectures. I then returned to the library after tea until it closed at 10pm. But I got very good marks, and I wouldn't have been able to do that while holding down a full time job. I did benefit hugely though from having a variety of different full time jobs in the holidays. I also participated in the uni clubs and societies, particularly the sports ones. A lot of this is traditionally considered part of the university experience, part of becoming a well rounded individual, before you go off and work in a full time job for the rest of your life.

I appreciate this once valuable system is now considered outmoded and employers are struggling to find graduates who are worth employing!

[LessMissAbs]

Did you go to uni, OP? I did, and got a grant as well as my tuition fees paid, no loans. I cannot think how I would have managed as well as working virtually full time. I wouldn't have had time to study. I did work full time in the summer, Easter and Christmas holidays though. So many parents pay their student children's rent, and it puts those who don't get this help at a huge disadvantage. I think you are being very harsh on your daughter. She doesn't sound as if she is spending excessively on clothes and make up, but she does need stuff to wear presumably and looking good is what most people want to do.

I really don't see how working full time at the same time as doing a degree is workable. Unless you produce graduates with useless degrees that are marked too easily (this is an academic concern). Its a horrible state of affairs that we have created in this country in a once excellent academic system which worked.

Tabby Neither would dream of asking us for money. They would be embarrassed, I think

We pay for her share of the rent on the flat (all inclusive)

Do you see the difference?

[AliceRose90]

Personally? I don't think you are being unreasonable. I did not go to university, and if I had I wouldn't have received any financial help from my parents. I learned to be very self sufficient and budget at a young age. I have a stepdad who doesn't believe in letting teenagers coast along. I got a part time job as soon as I turned 16, and used to pay bus fares to get there rather than getting lifts from my parents. I started full time work at 17, paid £50 a week "rent" to my parents and was living alone by 18, paying all rent and bills myself.

This probably seems quite extreme, but I honestly think it did me the world of good. I loved being so independent, that I'd earned my own money. Oh sure, at the time I cursed them, but now I look back and think how much I appreciate what they did. I learned responsibilities very early on, I didn't have to rely on anyone for anything, and my stepdad is so proud of how I've done over the years that he recently bought me a laptop (and I'm an adult now!) ;)

Me and my partner will be taking the same approach with our son. I'm currently studying at home alongside working and being a mum. I think it's all about motivation. Honestly though, I think this sort of thing should be taught in schools. An hour a week teaching teenagers about finances, how to budget, etc, I think these are pretty essential life skills.

[wordfactory]

slip so a student would need 8k as a rule of thumb? To cover rent and living expenses?

[Beastofburden]

The University quality assurance body assumes that a degree takes 1200 "total study hours" a year (Total study meaning taking contact hours and private study together). Actually, according to this year's Which/HEPI study the average Uni only requires 900 hours. Which said this year that increasingly, degrees were more like a part-time job than a full-time job, and that this has changed over the past few years. Total study hours ranged from 15 hours a week to 50; Oxford and Cambridge required twice as much study as their nearest comparators.

[Slipshodsibyl]

It isn't clear exactly how much you are supporting her. If your contribution is just 100 pounds per month plus as hoc top ups then I think that isn't very much at all (provided you can spare more). My elder daughters are soon to return to universities which give an approximate figure that students will need which is really helpful. It is about 4200 on top of the maintainance loan of about 3800. This assumes they will get a job during the Summer but not otherwise. We provide that . Their friends at other universities generally have parents who pay accommodation while they use the grant for spending money.

Parents who post in these threads often seem to feel that their student children should be very self sufficient but that is not what I see in general among parents in my life and I have friends of all income brackets. I admire those who manage to do a degree and work a lot of hours or run a home but they are exceptions .

It depends very much on the university and course as to whether she works and also upon what she does with her time when not in lectures. I have a background in teaching and Higher Ed and I am not in favour of working during term time if parents are able to contribute without hurting your own finances. I would suggest paying as many costs as you can from your contribution or having her do that when the grant comes in. If you can, load a food payment card either for the student union or a supermarket, that is helpful, then her needs ad commitments are covered and the sum leftover is much smaller and for her to spend freely and it will help her not to get into a pickle for a while.

Budgeting is really hard in a world where marketing convinces girls they need an array of clothing and beauty products and are losers if they are not very social. They do make mistakes. If you can help her pay as much up front as possible from her loan and your contribution, then, if she overspends you know that all she wants is a new skirt and she can learn to go without sometimes but that everything she needs to live and study is safely covered.

[4paws]

sooze here's what I think you need to do:

Get an idea from her of how much she thinks she's going to earn in the next few years after Uni. Then what she thinks her lifestyle will be like; if she thinks she's going to afford paying back loans, holidays, cars, rent of a flat in london, taxis, trains, insurance, water, council tax, nights out, clothes make up, you name it. Then get onto net salary calculator and work out how much net income 20k for example gives you in the bank, Finally, google dividing income into percentages, Dave Ramsey and the like, 25-25% income on housing, 10% debt repayment, 10% savings (xmas/holidays/new car/) 2%-8% on clothing etc etc and let her work out how much she will actually be left with, once she's paid for all the necessities. My bet is right now, she is clueless and has no idea. The penny needs to drop, and the sooner the better, or she will end up with massive debt problems.

[whatever5]

I went to university before the days of loans and people only worked during term time if they wanted to buy expensive make up or skirts. Very few people had to earn money just to eat and I find it really strange that people expect their children to do that if they can afford to give them money. I will give my children enough money to live on while they are at university, if I can afford it (taking the loan into account).

For some courses at some universities, students may have plenty of free time to work but that's certainly not true of all courses (e.g. medicine, dentistry, pharmacy).