To wonder where the fathers of these abused children were?

[juneau]

Baby P. Daniel Pelka. Hamza Khan. All these children were neglected, abused, tortured and, ultimately, killed by their mothers over a period of many months. So where the bloody hell were the fathers? It seems clear in all these cases that the fathers were aware that there were serious issues, yet it's only the SS and other agencies who are being hounded and blamed. So what about the other person with parental responsibility?

Just read that Hamzah was a twin and there were 5 children living in the house at the time. Hope they are all safe and cared for now.

Hamzah Khan's father was arrested for assaulting his ex partner. He told the police in his subsequent interview that his son was being neglected and that his ex would not allow him to take Hamzah to the Dr.

The same place the fathers of healthy, well cared for, well adjusted, high achieving absent fathers of children being raised by their mothers and a new partner.

If you are looking to point the finger of blame, with these small children at the end of the day, it's with the mother, and then ripples out to fathers, grandparents, teachers, social workers, next door neighbours.

I know this isn't a popular view on MN, but it's my view, and why MN is the reason I don't call myself a feminist.

If you give birth to a baby, they are your responsibility, and they come first no matter what.

You obviously haven't read the SCR on Baby P, his dad had fought for him and had, had allegations made against him by the mother which granted a restraining order.

He had residency at one point but BP was returned to his Mum, this is all documented and is part of the criticism if services.

If you knock on someone's door that you are not welcome at, they phone the police and you look like the aggressor.

You obviously have never had these sort of problems within your family and then have had the pleasure of dealing with inadequate services.

However many children are saved by the intervention by family members.

Anybody who is available to be in the childs life and knows what's going on bears responsibility for what they failed to do in helping the child but the mothers were the abusers/murderers here, they are fully responsible for that.

A friends husband left her with 3 children, she was self harmng and neglecting the children. He went to SS (as did several other people). He was told that if he kept the children he would be charged with kidnap. He did everything he could to get custody. Eventually, after I was called out in the night to her, having taken an overdose and cut herself badly, he did keep the children. SS supported him and said that they had been hoping he would do that for ages, but they couldn't encourage him to do so . Very bizarre. If they had so much as hinted that he wouldn't lose all contact and possibly face charges in court he would have acted far earlier.

How very mumsnet, the mother kills her child & it's blamed in the NRP father! That's outrageous and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how fathers are treated by the secret family court system.

You don't know the whole story here. If I had been the PC interviewing a father who, according to the transcripts, described the mother very accurately & his fears for his child, I would have done something to establish what was going on.

As a man who had just been arrested, I'd like to see how he would have been treated when trying to get access...what a joke! I have witnessed the kindest, professional, solvent father who supports his child financially via CSA consistently denied access to his child by his violent ex wife. Not only is he denied access, but lies are told by the mother which are believed, they refuse to press changes to pergury (we dont do that in family courts!!). She could be up to anything...how would he know. In court, he is treated as though he is scum...for wanting to see his child....why?

For many children who have mothers like this, fathers are the best back up plan there is. Our legal system denies them their parental rights by preferring children to stay with their mothers. This may have made sense in the 50s but doesn't now.

If you want to stop this from happening in the future, massive reform of the family court system is required. Shared, equal parenting should be the norm when a relationship breaks down, not an application for contact with your own child.

We expect fathers to pay for their kids, but break a delicate emotional bond by not allowing contact no no good reason. Penal notices attached to contact order should be the norm, otherwise court orders have no teeth. If this had been the case here, the child would not have dies through neglect.

I'm not blaming the NR fathers - but I am asking where they were and why they didn't do more. As I've already said I don't think the fathers are responsible for what happened. But when you are a parent of a child you have a responsibility to that child and if you know he's being neglected (as was the case with Hamza Khan's father), then you have a responsibility to report that to SS - something that appears not to have been done. Yes, he sounds like a nasty piece of work, but his wife was an alcoholic and it was clear to those around her that she was abusing her little DS, so if SS had got involved they should've been able to see that quite clearly too. He might not have been able to fight for custody, given his violent background, but by intervening he could've possibly got his DS removed from that filthy, abusive house, where he was being starved. That's the point I'm making.

if you know he's being neglected (as was the case with Hamza Khan's father), then you have a responsibility to report that to SS - something that appears not to have been done.

Unfortunately, acrimonious custody disputes sometimes escalate to making accusations against each other to social services as a weapon. It would be interesting to know what proportion of accusations of neglect or abuse by non-resident parents against the other parent eventually turn out to have some basis, but I suspect "not many". The signal then gets lost in the noise.

Maybe the sort of mothers who abuse and kill their children are also sometimes the sorts of mothers who would deny the fathers contact...

Birdsgottofly you are right. In fact in the baby P case his father refused to return baby P after an access visit because he looked so awful and was missing fingernails, appeared to be malnourished and showed signs of abuse.

The police came round and took him away and returned him to his mother, the father's access was curtailed even further and Peter was dead within a couple of weeks.

Hamzah's father might well be a piece of shit and the worst partner in the world. But he's not the one who starved a 4 year old child to the point where they were the size of a 1 year old at the age of 4 when they died.