to think about shopping friend of friend for undeclared income?

[FatAssPantaloons]

Is this really snide of me?

Friend of friend has several cash in hand cleaning jobs. Her three DCs are at school so she takes on as much work as she can while they're there. No idea how much she makes in a week but know she charges clients 10 pounds an hour. She works very hard - is one of these people who never seems to pause, is always buzzing wth nervous energy, working or looking for work.

Recently found out that she also claims tax credits as though she were a SAHM. All of her cleaning work is under the table - no tax paid but also claiming benefits as though she wasn't working.

Her husband has a full time low paid job, and they rent a small house in a wealthy area, in a rural place so they each need to run a car, so I can totally see why they need every penny they can get. But, she's defrauding, isn't she?

It's none of my business, right? Or is it?

I wonder whether 0P might come back and give some insight re. usualsuspects's question as to whether she's also going to report the people paying this woman cash in hand.

She should definitely declare all her income, and also carry insurance.

And charge significantly more money than £10 an hour.

That's what I do.

People expecting cheap cleaning (with no thought to things like holiday or sick pay) are part of the problem.

Have they done anything wrong? They would just say "I thought she was paying tax". It's a good idea if you are paying cash in hand to ask the question - are you declaring this? You can't make them pay tax though.

It's not an offence to pay someone cash.

It is an offence not to declare your earnings to HMRC, and if you are running a small business eg cleaning, you have 3 months after you start to tell HMRC what you are doing. So this woman is breaking the law, and ripping off the taxpayer on two fronts, one by not paying tax and NI on her earnings, and two, by claiming benefits on the basis that she is not earning anything.

I can't believe people condone this. Honestly, MN is usually so hot on obeying the law - (eg anyone doing 35 mph in a 30 zone is a social pariah), but when it comes to benefits, it's open house!

Namechange is right: I would trust and rely on a cleaner much more who was charging more, declaring it all and had insurance, and went with all the sick and holiday requirements. Absolutely and for sure. Plus, cleaning is hard and you have to get it right. I wouldn't want somebody who takes it casually. I've cleaned (for a proper organisation). Long time ago, and I was so bad at it I got the sack.

Some of my clients pay cash. I take cheque, cash, or bank transfer. I want them to know I'm honest, but they can pay however is most convenient for them.

It's my responsibility to declare the income and pay taxes.

People think £10 an hour is a lot of money. It's not. By the time you consider holiday and sick pay, and expenses like supplies and transport, it's not much better than minimum wage.

Especially for conscientious, quality work by a reliable person.

I charge by the job, aiming for £15 an hour (on average.) I do ok.

Or did until I broke my arm on the job. Wish I'd thought of Loss of Income insurance! Will have that in the future.

Seriously does not compute to ask for low taxes at the same time as a generous welfare system allowing unpunished abuse, and for other people not to pay taxes on their income. Doesn't make any sense at all.

The OP doesn't know, she's just had this from gossiping with a mutual friend.

I don't resent her not paying tax but I do resent her claiming benefits as though she wasn't working.

Of course most people don't agree with frauding the system and as I posted up thread my dsis served a prison sentence for this.
I didn't have a lot of sympathy for her dishonesty but relented obviously when she was away and I found her now xdh had filled in the forms, passed them to her and told her to sign.
Still, she should have checked them before she did.

You don't know what the consequences are when you report a fraudster, you may think they deserve everything they get, but it can harm children if the parents have to serve a sentence.
Unless you want to be responsible for something like this, you should let somebody else report or presume eventually they will be caught.

This is irrespective of the fact that there are so many other people and big business frauding far more and apparently nothing happens to them.

perhaps i'm being a bit thick, but I don't get why it is assumed WFTC is just based on her husbands wage - we both work, me FT, DH PT, and get WFTC, based on our household income.

a cleaner will have loads of expenses I would guess, so she may well be declaring that she is working, but with no, or very little, income from it.

we, and you, don't have enough facts to report anyone for anything.

Crumble , really not everybody thinks its right, i dont at all. Its disgusting. I dont understand people who moan about bankers, Amazon etc when cheating the benefits is still stealing. Yes somebody maybe chesting just to make bit extra as theyre struggling, however there are people worse off who arent stealing.
This is reason theyre getting so strict with benefits now. Its the people who are genuinely to sick to work who i feel sorry for.

The problem with people working as cleaners undeclared is that they are able to undercut those who do declare, have insurance etc.

In time it will only be possible to work profitably as a cleaner if you are willing to cheat the benefit / tax system and not have insurance.

Which is rubbish for the honest mum who is brilliant at cleaning and needs a flexible job.

And not great for people who employ cleaners as the only have the option of dishonest people.

Having said that I would not report as:-

1. Your information is not necessarily reliable
2. You need a combination of courage and ruthlessness to report and I don't have it.

While you're about it also report Amazon, Vodaphone, Boots...

I don't understand your point, unless your point is that if one person/company doesn't pay enough tax, then it's a free for all and everyone is entitled to steal from the government by whatever means they can?

Anyway, OP, I agree that you should grass on the cheating cunt.

When she's found out she deserves everything that's thrown at her, the same as any other person or company that's cheating deserves to be punished.

You really can't take a consensus of opinion from MN as its make up is so incredibly left-wing it bears no resemblance to the real world.

So, if she wasn't claiming tax credits, would it be ok then?

Dh works full time, and DJ's four nights per week. If he didn't pay tax on both jobs we'd be able to afford a holiday for the first time ever, but we do, because it's bloody illegal not to!

To be honest, it'd be nice if he could earn a living wage on either one of those jobs, so he could give up the other! :(

I think the bit that's worst is she's not just not paying her fair share into the pot via tax, but she's also taking more out that her fair share. If she was just going off plan, not paying tax but not taking anything, I'd be more sympathetic, but taking other people's money knowing you aren't entitled to it? Scummy behaviour. Report.

I'm not condoning it, but I wouldn't shop someone unless I personally were 100% certain the person was in fact a fraud, because I know from others' experiences it's not simply a case of 'Well, if you don't have anything to hide, you have nothing to worry about.' They cut you off asap and the onus is on you to prove your innocence, not the other way round. Until then, the credits stop, possibly tipping innocent people into debt or homelessness. All over some gossip?

I mean, get real! If she's dumb enough to even tell a 'friend' she's not declaring, which who knows if she is, she's bound to soon be caught without the OP.

But personally, I'd cut this so-called mutual friend a huge berth because hanging out with gossips and shit-stirrers is never a good thing.

I just could not

If she has 3 months to declare then perhaps she hasn't done anything wrong? Maybe she's worked hard to see how much she can earn and thought right, this works, I'll stick at it and fill in the paperwork. Dh and I actually get less tax credits than we would if I were working and I've been looking for a job for ages now, but there's been nothing that fits around dh's hours.

Is the employer not obliged to report it via real time?

Good heavens life is hard enough without people shopping people for alleged frauds. It's so hard to get by these days for the majority of people. It's got to the stage now that even with 2 incomes it's not enough to pay all the bills. The cost of living is at an all time high, gas and electric going up again this winter. Wages are not going up in line with inflation except for the greedy MPs who inure themselves from the worst austerity measures I've ever known with their bumper pay packets. A few years ago the country was being encouraged to "shop a benefit cheat" by the government when it emerged that they were fiddling on a grand scale with their fake expenses claims. The pure hypocrisy and greed was mind blowing. What made the whole thing worse was the fact that hardly any got prosecuted for such blatent fraud. Your friend of a friend might or might not be fiddling her taxes but if she is you can bet that she won't have 2 homes and be on about 70 grand a year. She might do it for necessity, the MPs did it for out and out greed. So no, I certainly wouldn't shop her, save your disdain for someone more worthy of it.

Good post, moanalot.

I detest this culture of spying on and reporting those closest to you out of jealousy at the perceived riches they may have when this government is laughing at you for being so fucking gullible because you are ignoring the bigger picture.