OMG. Are these 'penalty notices' for taking children out of school in term time legally enforceable?

[Utterlyastoundedmum]

Not interested in having a debate about whether it is 'right' to take a child out of schol, in term time for holidays etc. just wanting to know whether they can be enforced from a legal perspective.

I have just read the latest school newsletter and am to be honest, very annoyed indeed to find that as of September the school are changing its policy on authorising absences. Until now it's always been on a case by case basis but now they are saying no absence will be authorised whatsoever no matter what, except for one day for weddings ( with proof!)

The penalty is £60 or £120.

Not very fair on any parents such as myself who booked a holiday for a week in October as we really CANNOT get away in half term this year.

I will not be paying unless this is legally enforcible!!

[OhMerGerd]

Lol and if your kids go to a very expensive private school ( like many govt ministers and their mates) they've already three nearly four weeks into the summer hols.
Cheap deals before the rest hit the beach and outside this fines system anyway.
Interesting isn't it. Who is actually affected by this clamp down.

[Dahlen]

I've never taken mine out of school in term time. I have no intention of doing so other than this trip to Australia, which I would be happy to take right up to the highest level in order to authorise because I am pretty sure I'd win. I don't advocate taking children out if avoidable and certainly not at crucial times. Saving money isn't a valid reason unless the price difference rules it out completely, but IMO - and in the opinion of many teachers I know - for some families in some circumstances, the benefits achieved by taking a term-time holiday far outweigh any detriment to their education. That's why it should be discretionary rather than a one-size fits all.

[Hercy]

Am I missing something? (I don't have children yet, so I possibly am)

I really don't understand why a parent feels they should have the right to take their child out of school for a holiday.

Holidays are a luxury, there may be some educational value in them, but not anywhere near the same as being in classes all day.

So what if it costs less? It would cost me less to get a train to work that was off peak (ie after 9am), but I don't think my employer would take to kindly to me rolling in at 10 - 10.30am, even if it would half my travel expenditure.

If you can't afford a holiday in the school holidays, then you simply can't go, or only go every 2nd or 3rd year. That may be a bit shit, but that's life, and holidays aren't a right (time off is, not actually going away).

I can't imagine ever taking my (potential) children out of school for a holiday, just as I can't imagine booking leave when I know I have important deadlines coming up - it's just not responsible.

Maybe actual parents will tell me I'm being naive or live in some kind of utopia. But I was brought up to respect rules, and I don't see how you are teaching that to your children if you take them out of school for a holiday.

[lljkk]

I as advised that the fines will almost certainly only be levied in the case of repeat offenders. So I am not worried as we only go away once every 4 yrs (yes, to see family many thousands of miles away).

[Mrchip]

What about all the parents who work in the nhs? Their annual leave requests may be refused if the majority are all wanting school holiday leave.

There is already pressure to have the same service all year round-to do this leave needs to be spread.

[Utterlyastoundedmum]

Hercy sorry to sound a bit peed off, but yes, you may be missing the point.

When you have kids yOu may find that after ( in our case) 7 years of literally no unbroken nights sleep, coupled with enormous childcre bills (£circa 8k a year for us and that's not unusual) plus having to work 60 odd hours per week plus x y z other responsibilities and pressures which nearly break you on a daily basis, yes you may feel you need and yes deserve a holiday.

For all the reasons stated above you may decide that on balance that will involve taking your child out of school for a few days or a week. Live and learn, live and learn!

[thebody]

hercy, yes sorry you don't understand really.

my dh works away, 6 months in Australia last year so when he gets time off we need to gel as a family unit.

generally this does not include holidays in term time but if that's the only alternative then that's it.

holidays arnt educational but they are vital family bonding times and great if you can afford them.

I expect it will be challenged under the right to family life human rights act and a parent will win so all will be ignored.

[EBearhug]

It's not always about cost. I grew up on a farm, and there's not a chance in hell my father would ever have been able to consider a holiday away during harvest (or haymaking, or silage or whatever.) And if we didn't go away, he wouldn't actually get a break, what with living on the job, so my mother was always insistent (rightly, I think) that we had family time where there was no chance of the farm interrupting.

So twice a year, I was sent into the head with a form requesting permission with the same reasons every time. Actually, our holidays were horribly educational, and I learnt way more about physical geography and various historical events on family holidays round Britain than I did at school.

I don't know if my parents would have chosen differently had we not done well at school, nor if permission had ever been refused. By the time I was in the 6th form, I made my own choice, and arranged to get the train home and stay with a school friend for the week that wasn't half-term so I didn't miss anything.

I don't think I agree with the option of applying discretion being taken away.

[Tinpin]

Marmalade-Yes of course all teachers will help a child who has been ill and try to help them catch up. That's completely different. You are expecting that you can enjoy your holiday and then your child's teacher should spend part of the class lesson times or maybe her lunchtimes helping your child to catch up on everything the class has covered whilst you have been away, Maybe they will have to repeat this many times during the term for several children who are absent because of holidays. That's unfair. You have chosen for your child not to be there.( For the record I would always try to help a child who had missed something important when they had been on holiday)

[ChippingInHopHopHop]

It is ridiculous. This country is getting more and more ridiculous. What part of parent does this govt think it is??

[PrettyKitty1986]

there may be some educational value in them, but not anywhere near the same as being in classes all day

Really? What do you think taught my five year old more about France? Covering it in school for a week (this was actually something they looked at this year) on and off - or the week we actually spent in France - picking up simple words, speaking to the locals, eating the food and visiting the places of interest?

You are hugely missing the point in this one sentence.

[ChippingInHopHopHop]

Oh & btw, I would have no problem whatsoever with teachers taking time off in term time if they needed to, the world really isn't going to end if the kids have another teacher for a couple of weeks.

[piprabbit]

By removing discretion, it means that only families who can afford the additional financial hit will be able to go away in term time.
The poorer families will be left between a rock (paying the fine) and a hard place (paying higher holiday costs).

[crashdoll]

I love the whole "oh but our holidays are educational"! Just admit you want some sun and fun on the cheap.

[Alibabaandthe40nappies]

This is a daft plan. The info from our school even says that visiting relations abroad isn't allowed in term time.

Tbh though, even at £1200 per week for two children it is cheaper than paying for a half-term week of skiing over the previous week, so loads of people are going to just ignore it.

[SaucyJack]

I think the fines are OTT too and I really don't see a problem with kids missing a week of school as long as it isn't exam week or whatever.

99 per cent of what we learnt at school was pointless twaddle taught to us purely for the sake of it. Nothing learnt in a single week is going to be that important the world will end if they miss it.

[bordellosboheme]

Flipping ridiculous. It makes me want to homeschool or flexi school

[thebody]

agree chipping. this government of millionaire twats have absolutely no idea how ordinary families live.

it's utter bollocks to apply such a blanket rule.

soon there will be government advisors in every home telling you how many times your child needs their nappy changed and standing over you cooking the tea telling you the evils of pizza.

ffs its laughable, parents can home ed their kids without so much as a visit from inspectors and no application of standards or tests to see if they are being taught jack shit.

[Alibabaandthe40nappies]

I have to say, that having spent the year helping out in my child'd reception class, it is really interesting to see the progress of children and how much time off they have.

What seems to do the most damage is the odd day off here and there repeatedly over the year. One family have taken their child out for several long weekends away so he has missed Thursday/Friday or Friday/Monday several times - plus a full week away at one point. His progress really has suffered, partly I suspect because his parents attitude is that school doesn't matter.
Children who have had a week or two off in a block, but whose parents are committed to them being in school the rest of the year suffer far less.

Obviously this is only a straw-poll of one class.

Holidays are definitely educational, because they broaden horizons. Anyone who can't see that needs their head examining.

[bordellosboheme]

Holidays are generally way more educational than being droned at by a probably bored teacher stuck in a classroom. Really, can anyone not see that ????

[youarewinning]

My mum who is a teacher also questioned how legally enforceable this is. She doesn't have the full facts atm but has said she'd be surprised if it was.

She also believes that childrens education should be all rounded and that sometimes these trips are beneficial to a child - for example my brother and sister came to visit me when I lived abroad in a ski resort. She also thinks the odd day off for once in a lifetime opportunities, eg Olympics and even football matches is ok.

She actually joked how teachers used to look forward to June and July when the class was quieter as everyone took their holidays

[LadyMilfordHaven]

if you dont pay them you end up at the magistrates court



so yes

[bordellosboheme]

Course Disney is educational. You could have a discussion about tourism industry and impacts.... It's all in the framing isn't it? Bloody nanny state

[SoupDragon]

Holidays are definitely educational, because they broaden horizons. Anyone who can't see that needs their head examining.

Anyone who thinks all holidays are educational needs their head examining.

[LadyMilfordHaven]

they have penalty notices atm - you lost just dont see them. People given loads of chances to pay and if they dont they end up at mag court.

They offer rather odd excuses on the whole, some understandable, some bizarro, then they get fined.

interestingly even the hearsay that a kid was on holiday rather than ill is enough, there is no burden of proof to show this on the prosecution.
you are either in school, or not.