year 6 leavers do/Prom

[bigteach]

Last night I was horrified and pleasantly surprised all at the same time.....depositing my daughter at her year 6 leavers disco, me, looking moderately flustered and slightly shabby from work. my little girl, scrubbed clean and a pretty, long summer dress, favourite shoes and hair usual bunch, with added bow, when looking at the girls crowded round Mr P their fab teacher... Several girls you could tell....had spent hours....having hair done, nails, accessories etc.. but good god.....what were they wearing?...expensive, silk/satin strapless(what have they got to actually hold it up?)AND extremely short ball gowns with 3inch...strappy heels???!! It was something like sex in the City gone Bugsy...WRONG....sooo WRONG!!!
needless to say I stared round to see how many of these unfortunate 'children' there actually were...and breathed a huge sigh of relief....3mmmm possibly 4 the rest of the girls looked pretty much the same as mine....happy excited 11yr olds going to a party, so therefore happy to reflect...the west country has not become so horrifically Americanised yet, though there is a party (privately organised) tomorrow that apparently is going to involve....stretched Limos etc...oh and parents are to attend with their little ones, whether they want to or not......I conveniently lost this invite!

[NettoSuperstar]

Your DD looks lovely Hulababy, tbh I can't see much difference between her dress and DD's dress, except DD's had no straps.
It is really just a sun dress though, I bought it from Superdry.
Her heels were probably bigger too, but as I have said, they were mine, and she had converse to change into, but kept the heels on.

When I picked her up, I saw them all dance to the last couple of songs-Don't stop believing and Gangnam, and they looked like a bunch of 11/12 year olds having fun, not kids trying to be older than they are.

[eccentrica]

Ralph "eccentricia your choice of words to describe some 10/11 year old girls has shocked me to the core. Do you realise what you have actually said about these children?"

Er, yes. I've said that their parents have dressed them in a style which makes them look like (at best) footballers' wives, and (at worst) like underage prostitutes.

Why, what did you think you read?

Some of the comments on this thread are laughable. Particularly:

1. The idea that 11-year-olds are all totally innocent, prepubescent children and that therefore dressing them up like (extremely tarty) women is some sort of joyous celebration of innocence. Clue: when I was 11 years old I'd started menstruating over a year earlier. I was 5 ft 6 inches tall, wore size 10 clothes and a C-cup bra. I had enough trouble from men twice or three times my age dressed in age-appropriate clothes.
   

Thank fuck I didn't have a mother who dressed me in high heels, fake nails, and a microskirt. I certainly wouldn't have looked like 'an innocent child playing dress-up', and although I was an early developer, I certainly wasn't off the scale.

1. Leaving that aside, the idea that even if you're talking about definitely prepubescent children (say 7 years old) that it's still somehow tasteful and not at all disturbing to dress them up in a this style which, in a nutshell, is a style adopted by adult women intended to appeal sexually to men. My daughter is nearly 3, and the idea of dressing her like that at ANY age, prepubescent, tween or otherwise is revolting. I sincerely hope she doesn't choose to dress like that as an adult either, but at least that will be her choice.
   

1. Above all, the idea that what is disgusting or sickening here is the words being used to describe it. Yeah - because the person with the sick, twisted mind is the person who objects to children being dressed up in this way. Er, right.

[eccentrica]

That is I had enough trouble from men twice or three times my age even though I was dressed in age-appropriate clothes. They weren't - that would be a whole other thread...

[Hulababy]

BTW there are lots of Y6s who do have enough curves to hold up a strappy dress ime. Many are already wearing bras and well on their way to developing.

I don't think any of the girls I have seen at Y6 leavers stuff, your DD included Netto, who look anything other than young girls having fun. One of DD's friends does have a strapless dress, although not wearing at on the photo, and she doesn't look anything more than a young girl in a strapless dress - yes, as they often do they look a bit older dressed up - but they still look like young girls. And definitely not like mini prostitutes - urgh! Who really calls young 11y girls that?!

[Hulababy]

DD has very small heels on that photo - but she has had higher, esp when she could wear my shoes. Now her feet are too big to pinch them, nd the ones she has on in the pics were bought specifically as we knew at one event she would need relatively sensible ones.

[MissyMooandherBeaverofSteel]

I think you just proved that if some twat is going to sexually harrass someone they will do so regardless of what they are wearing, so I'm not really sure of your point.

In that situation the blame lies firmly at the door of the person and their own twisted thoughts, not at the door of the victim of the harrassment and what they are wearing.

[eccentrica]

Missy nice try to twist it into a case of 'victim blaming'. Perhaps you could respond to one of the points I actually made, rather than something I didn't say? This is nothing to do with sexual harassment.

The point I was making there, which you (deliberately?) misconstrued, was that it's nonsense to portray all 11-year-olds as prepubescent, flat-chested children who are playing 'dress up' in an innocent way. Whether they like it or not, many girls of that age are already starting to look like women (and may be extremely self-conscious about it).

My primary point, as made multiple times above, is that I think it's wrong and disturbing to dress children of any age in a style which mimics adult women trying to blatantly appeal sexually to men.

TBH I am really astonished that that appears to be a controversial opinion here.

[MissyMooandherBeaverofSteel]

My point (that you are deliberately missing) is that they are doing it to feel a bit grown up, not to attract men.

And, yes, now you mention it your post did have a bit of victim blaming going on.

[Hulababy]

DD and her friends dress up for themselves. There are no boys at most of their school events/parties as it is a girls school, so not even trying to dress up to look nce for boys, it is just for themselves.

Predatory men who are interested in 11yo girls will be interested in them regardless of their clothes :(

Of course not all 11y are undeveloped. Many are developing well. My DD definitely is and she is not alone at school. 4 of them have started their periods (out of 11) and only a couple still dont wear a bra.

But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to dress up, especially in a safe environment where everyone is looking out for them. It isn't even as if at these parties (or proms) they are walking the streets or in a position to be getting into bother - they are with teachers, parents and other known adults.

[picnicbasketcase]

I find the fuss they now make over year 11 leaving parties weird enough. The copying of American high school traditions seems to be fairly recent, we had a sixth form ball in my day, there was none of this 'prom' nonsense.

My DS is about to leave year 6 and his school just have a disco at school in the evening. I think they'd be utterly bemused if any of the children turned up covered in fake tan and riding in limos. And to be honest I would be a bit at strapless dresses and heels on children that young too.

[eccentrica]

WTF are you talking about, victim blaming? No, it doesn't. What a load of cock. Quote the relevant bit, where I blame any victim for anything, then.

I never said for one moment that the girls are doing it 'to attract men'. Could you do me the courtesy of reading what i've said, if you're going to engage in discussion?

it's bloody obvious that they are doing it to conform and to feel grown up. Which apparently can only be interpreted these days as dressing like someone off TOWIE.

I said they are dressed by their mothers in a style which mimics adult women trying to appeal sexually to men. That's what's wrong with it. That is not the same thing as saying the girls are trying to attract men.

Did you really think, when I said it was disgusting to dress 3-year-olds like that, that I was suggesting the 3-year-olds are trying to attract male attention??!

[eccentrica]

oh and perhaps I should have said dressed by their mother, father, guardian or other person in a position of parental responsibility before someone decides to get worked up about sexism or something similarly off the point.

[MissyMooandherBeaverofSteel]

To be honest, you are getting so hysterical, and attributing words like 'prostitute' to children, nothing about your opinions would surprise me anymore.

I can't directly quote as I'm using the app just now, but your first point something like 'I had enough problems with men when I was wearing age appropriate clothes' then something like 'Thank God my Mother didn't dress me in short skirts and fake nails'.

If you didn't mean you would have been harrassed more for wearing a short skirt (ie blaming the wearers of short skirts and not the ones who think its fair game to harrass the wearers) then I wholeheartedly apologise. I can't think of what else you meant by it though.

I see your dd is 3, I guess when my oldest dd was that young I may have had views on things I didn't really have a clue about either, but parenthood is a learning curve and we all get shocks along the way. I shall look forward to reading your posts in 8 years time

[NettoSuperstar]

Is this a good time to tell you that one of DD's friends will be staying over next week, in her room.
He is a boy
DD will likely wear her usual clothes of something with holes in and flip flops, definitely no impressing going on there.
They will spend their time giggling, eating pringles and chocolate, and making silly Youtube videos.

[MissyMooandherBeaverofSteel]

Netto your dd had an evening wearing a strapless dress and heels and now you allow her to have a male friend sleep over

She is clearly dooooooooomed.

[FauxFox]

eccentrica

1. 11 year olds are innocent. Having periods/boobs developing does not make them not 'innocent' at age 11 loss of innocence is only caused by abuse surely?
   
2. Please can I see an example of these styles designed purely to attract men? I am seeing party dresses (some with short skirts/strapless) and party sandals with heels, a bit of sparkly make-up and nails. I am not seeing suspenders, stripper heels, bum skimming skirts, hot pants, false eyelashes etc...
   
3. Not sure what you mean exactly here.
   

And good luck to you trying to make your DD wear your choice of clothes after the age of about 6, my DD is now 8 and has very clear ideas of what she wants to wear and whilst I would not choose all her choices I am glad she wants to express herself. Clearly there are parameters and I don't allow her high heels for example, but if she wants to wear leopard print leggings instead of stripey ones why not? She likes them because they are animal print and she likes animals, not because they might be considered more racy on an adult.

[Thymeout]

Hula - your daughter looks lovely. But I don't think the clothes her classmates have chosen are the same as what the OP is talking about. They look like what I'd expect 11 year olds to be wearing.

But in some schools, it really is strapless prom dresses, fake tans, hair extensions, high heels and micro-skirts. And I've heard of quite a few where there's been a big split in the PTA about it.

[eccentrica]

Missy I meant that it was confusing and difficult enough for me as an 11-year-old who could have passed for 15 or 16, without then being dressed up as an adult woman with all that implies. Not that I expect children to be sexually harassed at a primary school event.

I am far from 'hysterical' - I'm just posting in between toddler and work demands, and it's very annoying to be deliberately misrepresented as it means wasting time 'defending' things I didn't say in the first place, and having the points I do make ignored.

I did not 'attribute the word prostitute to a child', I said i think it's wrong to dress children like prostitutes. That's what microskirts, heavy make up, fake nails etc. imply. Like I said, could equally be WAGs or the cast of TOWIE or whatever. I guess looking like a prostitute is fashionable if you're under 25.

My daughter will be 3 in September and yes, I'm sure there will be lots for me to learn along the way. But I am still able to form and explain my opinion on the OP's post without necessarily having first hand experience as a mum.

(Is Netto's last post aimed at me? I hope not because I can't for the life of me see what its relevance is!)

[shinytoe]

Do away with the whole Prom thing altogether for under-16s, that's what I say.

It all causes too much of a fuss! What's wrong with a disco, where the kids are free to wear what they like without any feeling pressured to 'dress up'? God knows they'll get enough of that peer pressure to do so when they're older. We don't need to be facilitating that.

[eccentrica]

Faux

1. I'm sure 11 year olds could equally have pole dancing parties in an innocent way (I remember a thread about this a while back) but that doesn't mean it's something parents would necessarily be comfortable with. Anyway, I remember being 11 and it is far from an innocent age in any sense. Perhaps some mums have deliberate amnesia when their daughters reach that age...
   

1. I don't have pictures, I was responding to the OP's post in which she described it as "having hair done, nails, accessories etc.. ...expensive, silk/satin strapless(what have they got to actually hold it up?)AND extremely short ball gowns with 3inch...strappy heels???!! It was something like sex in the City gone Bugsy...WRONG....sooo WRONG!!!"
   

1. I have been accused of being some sort of pervert for finding it distasteful to dress children up like that. I was saying i think it's more distasteful to do it in the first place.
   

"Clearly there are parameters and I don't allow her high heels for example, but if she wants to wear leopard print leggings instead of stripey ones why not?"

Indeed, why not? Not sure why you think I disagree with you here. I would also be fine with leopard print leggings but would draw the line at high heels. I think high heels clearly connote 'adult' and 'sexual' and young girls wearing them look either very silly, very wrong or both.

It's all about parameters isn't it? I can't make my daughter wear anything she doesn't want to NOW, so yesterday I let her wear bright green shorts with a pretty white dress and my big floppy white sunhat. No harm done. I drew the line though at a winter scarf, hat and gloves which she wanted to wear (in 30+ degrees). I'm the adult and better able to judge than her what is and isn't suitable. Surely that's the point?

[NettoSuperstar]

No eccentrica, my last post wasn't aimed at you.
It wasn't aimed at anyone.

[Thymeout]

Faux - I don't have a picture, but what would you say about black patent thigh boots with hotpants? A bit OTT for 11?

Trying on her older sister's clothes in her bedroom, experimenting with makeup at home - fair enough. But letting her out in public to a school event?

[FauxFox]

See I don't think high heels connote 'adult' and 'sexual' I think they connote 'falling over' and 'sprained ankle'

I do think you are overthinking this a bit, but I feel the OP may have put a spin on her observations to sensationalise, I mean "hair done" could be a french plait, "nails" glitter nail polish is surely fine? "accessories" an evening bag? What a scandal! "expensive silk/satin strapless dresses" well I doubt there were very many strapless ones but even with that bit is this kind of thing really worth getting worked up about? As long as it doesn't fall off and is comfy what's the problem? I've already said I think high shoes are silly but it's more for safety reasons than sexy reasons

[FauxFox]

thyme I would think that black thigh high boots and hot pants is not a good look at any age and i'd be surprised to see an 11 yo at a prom or anywhere else wearing that - have you seen this irl? If so i'd imagine that falls very much outside the 'normal range' of anyone's experience.