to leave the beach because DS DOES NOT LISTEN arggggggggggghhhhhh

[youarewinning]

Background: DS (8) has suspected AS. He finds socialising extremely difficult, is disorganised, anxious and seems to have a total lack of attachment or care towards things. He really wants something like a toy and then when has it (birthday/xmas) doesn't really how an interest.

So it's gorgeous today, I ask DS if he would like lunch and a play on the beach. He's very excited. Wants to use his snorkel he bought himself (poundshop!) a few weeks ago but has no idea where he's put it. We live in a 2 bed flat
He always complains about sand/ stones etc and wants to wear socks on the beach - I use to allow him until he would take them off the minute they got wet/sandy and walked bare foot - proving he couldn't possibly do it to be a bit of an exaggeration and so no more socks got ruined.
He has 'crocs' and sandals for wearing in water, plimsoll type trainers and school shoes.
He refused to wear the 'crocs' and sandals - "they are sandy" - they are not as they have been cleaned - and insisted on wearing his plimolls. I made it clear they were not for wearing in water and they would get sandy and as they are the only shoes he has that he can apparently wear he would have to wear them after the beach.

He wears them.

Get to beach - he insists he has to go onto sandy bit about 10 meters from where we were sitting and wear his plimsolls and couldn't possibly walk onto sand from where we are and let me take his shoes for him.
He plays, they get sandy and then he goes in sea with them on.
Comes back, TAKES THEM OFF, Runs back across the bit he couldn't possibly go across half hour earlier, runs across the sand and into the sea.

I went and got him, told him we were leaving and why, explained he now has NO SHOES to wear (at least until plimsolls are washed and dry) and have told him he needs to learn things have value and he must learn to care about things.

He hates me, I feel guilty as it is only a pair of shoes, but AIBU to think it's about the bigger picture and he needs to learn he can't just treat objects how he chooses at the time as it' about the bigger picture.

[youarewinning]

UPDATE:

Thanks or all the advice.
Had a day at beach with friends yesterday - DS in his new beach shoes (£3.49 from Aldi!).
I was very clear with boundaries - DS still tried insist in going along and into sea - it's so strange!!!
I'm still struggling with the fact I have to spoon feed him stuff at almost 9 but that's something ill have to get use to and get over.

Thanks for all wonderful advice

[youarewinning]

Thanks squinkies I started the mum rule tonight.
I noticed he does try and take control when I place demands on him or try and joke about. It was a simple - stop - this is happening - do it.
I did work.
He then "told" me he was going out on his scooter when his mate called. "told", he has never done that before - always asked. Was told I make the decisions but there is definatly something in there about him needing to feel in control.

[SquinkiesRule]

You know come to think of it I stopped giving Ds 1 choices for things like dinner, He would waffle on, never was diagnosed with AS but no one did when he was younger he's 24 now. He did have obvious sensory issues. I would say whats for dinner of just plop it in front of him. With the Pool (we are far from the beach) I said that we are going and told him what to put on, some days he didn't last long there, and would sit under a beach towel while his little brother swam, or get taken off into the clubhouse by my friends older kids to play pool. He has got so much better about things as he aged, but I was one bossy mother with him or we'd never have gone anywhere ever. I never engaged in an argument with him, it was futile. He went round and round and never saw any view but his own. Routine was his best friend and I kept to it even in summer holidays (mostly)

[youarewinning]

I think he struggles when the choice is not whats on his mind!
He'll often talk about cars or minecraft when I start a conversation about something unrelated - helpful to know it's probably because he' uncomfortable. It's something I can mointor - thanks.

[Kleinzeit]

We don?t have exactly that kind of conversation but my DS does struggle with choices. He can usually manage a choice of two things but no more. For years I couldn?t take him into a toy shop because he couldn?t bear all the different things ? eventually we got to a stage where if he knew in advance exactly what he wanted he could go in and get it, and now (teenage) he can browse the shelves in a computer games shop (but clothes shopping is still hell) If he?s uncomfortable with a conversation he?ll go on about something completely unrelated like Pokemon or Dungeons and Dragons instead (not even food-related!) So maybe your DS is struggling even with choosing between two things?

[SquinkiesRule]

Have you tried not engaging in the conversation when he goes off track, like in asking for Chicken?
You, sausage or meatballs for dinner?
Him Chicken sounds nice blah blah blah
You, did you say you want sauages or meatballs?
Him blah blah blah
You if you don't choose I'll just make sausage then.
I think he'll make a choice if he has too.
With the beach I refuse to allow good shoes out the door, for us it's the pool and clubhouse. He either gets in the car barefoot and you have crocs in the bag or he puts the crocs on before leaving.
I think sometimes we give kids too many choices, it can be overwhelming. If you make the rules before getting in the car, stick to them, if he can't abide by them then don't go and when he asks tell him why.
I would have left the beach as you did with the shoe thing. But if you don't change the goal posts and make sure he knows the rules and stick to them he'll never have to comply why would he, you let him do what he wants. I've abandoned shopping, left restaurants with my food in a box, left the pool 5 minutes after arriving. I'm not unreasonable or shouty, but I tell them whats going to happen, and stick to what I said, I even give a chance (and they will take advantage of that sadly)

[youarewinning]

Thanks toni we are going shoe shopping next week. Which in fact will likely be an online order from next with his wedding 'outfit' he needs (shorts and shirt). Shopping and DS are not really a great combination - he has no interest - at least if he shops on a computer screen he looks at what I'm buying

wilson I'm so glad I'm not the only one who can have a 10 minute discussion over 2 food choices! Complete with advert and instructions on how it works.

[WilsonFrickett]

Omg what are you doing with my DS (and can you keep him for a week, thanks)

[Toni27]

My son has asd and has really sensitive feet. The idea of a specific pair of beach shoes sounds like a Very Good idea. It can be so frustrating when u just want to have a nice day out and you havent anticipated something simple that turns into a big problem, but next time you will be prepared with the shoes thing and it will be fine I'm sure.

[youarewinning]

"aspies run on anxiety" That explains a lot about my DS. Everything he does is as a stepping stone to the next thing - he actually 'jitters' iyswim?

[youarewinning]

I'll definately look at PDA techniques - thankyou. I don't think he has PDA (from what I've googled! read) because actually he is mostly far more "obediant" than most of his peers who all appear to be going through an argue the toss stage. That is a very basic argument against but he jut doesn't "fit" it iyswim? But then I also know there's a cross over with PDA and ASD and specific ASD like AS so anything is worth considering and trying.

Just some things he see's a logic in - that I and no-one else can see. Very much like klein said. And he'll argue his logic, that then goes off on a tangent, which usually ends up in me forgetting whatever it was I wanted him to do.

klein does this type of conversation happen in your house?!

ME: DS, I'm doing roast potatoes and veg for dinner, do you want meatballs or sausages with it?
DS: I really like chicken, I like chicken that you cook in the bag, you know the one where you get the bag and put in the powder, you don't have to use your own bag. I know how they work do you?
ME: I have one of the bags, I don't have chicken. Would you like meatballs or sausages? I can cook it in the bag if you want.
DS: "maggies ohh so juicey" (starts repeating the advert. Repeats the bit about how it cooks etc.
ME: DS, FFS do you want sausages or meatballs.
DS: I like the maggies ohh so juicy with chicken.
ME: DS, I do not have any chicken.
DS: I know you told me, please can I have the maggies ohh so juicy with meatballs.

And I know people will say don't give a choice, and perhaps they are right.

[Kleinzeit]

PDA was never mentioned when my DS was diagnosed with Asperger?s nearly 10 years ago, not sure if anyone had really heard of it then, but the psychologist told me ?Aspies run on anxiety? and that anxiety was the main fuel for DS?s meltdowns. So for me there?s a big overlap between PDA strategies and Aspie strategies anyway ? a lot of anxiety management in both.

And I once out-argued my own father when I knew I was wrong so I don?t believe in those kinds of logical arguments any more. It?s the difference between logical and reasonable ? my DS is also very good at being logical and completely unreasonable! But a lot of his ?logical? arguments are really just venting. So I negotiate if there?s something to negotiate over, otherwise I tell him how it?s going to be and I stick to my guns. I don?t argue against his logic but I am boring and persistent and I repeat myself, like they used to advise in assertiveness training, only I put pauses between the repetitions so DS has plenty of time to express himself and take in what I'm saying, as he has a slight processing delay.

[WilsonFrickett]

If 'when you do X, we'll do Y' and positive instructions are working for you then have a search on the SN boards for pathological demand avoidance (PDA). I am not in any way, shape or form suggesting he has this but the techniques both you and Klenzit use are classic PDA strategies, so you may find other strategies for dealing with it are helpful to you.

I feel I should repeat again that I'm not suggesting he has PDA! Just that it sounds like PDA strategies work well for your DS so take a look and see what else you can pinch.

[youarewinning]

Thanks for all this advice - it's greatly appreciated.

DS doesn't deliberatly damage objects or people - has damaged both through thoughtlessness though! I think it's his black and white view of things - if it's broken he can't use it, gets he can't use it because it's broken but doesn't get treating things carefully so they don't break! And it really is just forgetting himself not an intentional act.

RE: crocs only on beach. I am really going to have to enforce this. I assumed it was sensory issues as he does have them with clothes and shoes and mixing some foods on a plate! However he seems to be able to cope when he then can't cope with the item being wet/sandy. I guess maybe I'm missing that it's the lesser of 2 evils? Or that he gets used to sand or when he's distracted he then forgets about it?

Definatly going to start the "when you've done X, we can do Y". It's a nice positive way of getting what I want him to do done! I do say things like "you play on the pavement at all times" instead of "don't go in the road" because for some reason although they are both the same thing he gets the first. I guess like purple said it's the not linking up 2 things. "Don't go on the road" does not tell him what he actually can do!

We had a quick 'chat' when I put him to bed and he said he liked the 'beach shoes' he had last year - the wet suity type ones. I have said we'll get some of those so that should hopefully solve this problem!

I need to learn to ignore his constant reasonings; chose my battles and fight enforce them.

[Kleinzeit]

I might have suggested wearing the plimsolls to the beach and putting on crocs as soon as he got on the sand - if he would agree to that, and if I was sure he would stick to it, that is. (My DS would stick to it if he said so.) Otherwise I would either have insisted he wore the crocs (and put up with the meltdown) with the mantra ?WHEN you have put on your crocs THEN we can go to the beach? (my DS would probably then refuse to wear anything but crocs to the beach, always and forever....); or else let him wear his plimsolls and accepted (sigh) they?d get wet and grotty.

?How to treat objects? or ?care for the environment? are very large complicated general questions but the way to put things across to kids with ASCs is to be (mostly) very concrete and specific. Have you looked at social stories? Imagine writing a social story for ?how to treat objects? ? you?d probably need a lot of different social stories, for how to look after different kinds of object and things that can happen, getting water on it, getting it dirty, tearing it, breaking it?.. It's easier to pick the most important examples and work on those.

And there is not much point in punishing unintentional damage. If your DS is distracted when he should be getting in to the car then the distraction is what you need to manage. If he has to wear crocs to the beach then that?s the rule you need to enforce. My DS didn?t damage objects but I had to teach him how to treat people more carefully (argh!) so I know where you?re coming from on desperately wanting to teach general principles. But it just doesn?t seem to work that way. It?s all specifics and details and being concrete and getting in there before the problem starts. Sigh!

[WilsonFrickett]

Oh totally, I get it. Inability to link things up etc etc. although what's good (though infuriating ) is that he then will then wear the crocs, so he's not as rigid as he could be.

Every cloud

[insanityscratching]

Have you had an OT assessment? Sensory issues probably explain his behaviour today and he can't help having them. I have two with ASD and really you'll drive yourself mad sweating the small stuff. Only take on battles that are worth winning would be my advice because too many will create opposition from ds and frustration from you. For me if the plimsolls really were so important not to get wet then I wouldn't have taken them. Of they then got wet then I'd accept that I was foolish allowing them to be taken. Maybe more planning before you go to the beach could help next time. Have specific beach shoes that ds is responsible for rinsing in the shower when he gets home so that they are sand free for next time.

[youarewinning]

wilson I have heard so much about that book - really think I should get it! I totally get the wet/sandy shoes being the consequence - that totally makes sense.

I struggle with the fact the big deal about not wearing a certain shoe because they are sandy from before turns into him making others wet and sandy. Therefore he doesn't seem to learn by the consequence because the consequence is he'll have to do/wear something he apparently hates - but then does - ie; he then wore his crocs after all this. (iyswim?!)

It's a minefield!

[WilsonFrickett]

I absolutely get where you're coming from and why you did what you did, but the action and consequence don't match up IMO. He got his shoes wet/sandy, so the consequence of that is he has wet and sandy shoes. Not that a trip out is cut short - do you see what I mean? So I wouldn't have brought him home, but I would have made him fix his shoes himself and of course he would have had to wear them home.

My DS has a social communication disorder and I recommend 'how to talk so children will listen' which has helped me enormously with the difference between 'punishing' and 'consequences' and has made all our lives tonnes easier.

[PurplePidjin]

Pick your battles, yes, but you have to fight it every single time. Because what to us is a fractional difference, to the person with ASD is a totally new situation - the thinking doesn't join up iuswim? So, he now knows that getting plimsolls wet= coming home from the beach. He may not be able to turn that into disobeying mummy = coming home from the beach...

[youarewinning]

We do live next to the beach! About 5 minutes in the car so go ALOT - come rain or shine! He's 9 in 7 weeks and his peers certainly do have self control - which is mainly what he lacks.

It wasn't about him choosing to sit somewhere - I gave him the choice - it's that he then wanted to go onto the sand 10m along the beach (which is where he wouldn't sit!) and finding ways to manipulate why he couldn't/ wouldn't take his trainers off!

He suddenly managed to wear his crocs - which he rinsed again with his plimsolls and which dried outside in seconds - the crocs HE COULDN'T POSSIBLY EVER WEAR AGAIN because they had got sand in them.

For anyone who watches the Big Bang Theory it's like living with Sheldon Cooper - he's so amazing at arguing/ manipulating he can make you sound unreasonable even when your being sensible and are right. Yet he cannot sustain an actual conversation

We have pent 2 hours in the garden having fun this afternoon - I didn't make it a long drawn out punishment iyswim? We've just had a roast dinner and now he's watching a DVD and I'm going to get him some ice cream from the freezer.

[Tryharder]

YABU. It was only a pair of plimsolls. If they were wet, he would have either had to wear them wet and suffer or wait until they were dry. They would have dried within an hour in the sun in any case.

I think you are crediting 8 year old boys with more sense than they have TBH.

Unless you live next to the beach, presumably this was a day out for your family which has now been spoilt over a pair of bloody plimsolls.

[TimeofChange]

If you were having a good time on the beach I'd have stayed and continued to enjoy the afternoon.
It's not often we get good enough weather to enjoy the beach.

I don't think him choosing where to sit on the beach is a issue either really.

But then I'm a pushover!

[ThreeBeeOneGee]

Yes, I get that. Remorse and seeming understanding, then repeating the same behaviour again 5 minutes later.

[youarewinning]

purple thanks. I feel sometimes that I'm constantly dictating to him - pick my battles and then it all goes wrong!

threeBee exasperating is the exact word. He is such a generous, kind, fun loving boy but cannot grasps the basic concepts of life. It's interesting about the connection between behaviour and consequence - he seems to grasp it at the time as I always make it clear - but it doen't top him from repeatedly doing the same things. Hence the exasperation I feel.