To make my grown sons move to their Dads???????

[lollaby]

This will be long winded but please, please stick with me, I'm desperate and about to freak out!!!
I'm a single Mum and I'm going crazy!!!
I had my first son at 18 and my other at 20. By the age of 21 I separated from their Dad and raised them on my own (although they did go to their Dads/Grans every second weekend and they are now very close to their fathers family, more so then mine) Anyway I've spent most of my life raising my sons. As kids they were sweet and adorable and all was good, but when they hit 14 it all changed, almost like they became possessed and turned into "knowing it all smart arsed teenagers". They are now 19 and 20... And nothing has changed!! if anything they now behave like the Gurus of the twenty first century and I should bow down to them when ever blessed with their presence.
There not bad boys i.e there not verbally abusive (they don't swear, well not in front of me anyway) but they do constantly call each other "idiot" or "fool" and other belittling names way too many to list, there not violent, they don't do drugs or steal or anything like that, they both go college and work part time, they both contribute financially when they can, but money is not the issue here.
My youngest son is off to Uni this September, friends and family say I'm blessed and so lucky to have them, my eldest has even been called the perfect son and in many ways he is, I love them both dearly and am so proud of them, that will never change, my love is unconditional (well sometimes) but for the last 5 years or more they both have this attitude (especially the eldest) that their the head's of the house, they both constantly undermine me and completely disregard what I say. I feel like I'm becoming a nagging, resentful old hag and I'm only 39.
We argue all the time, over stupid little things, they don't swear but they argue back and refuse to back down, I'm always the one to apologize first just to stop the negative vibes and because I feel so bad that I shouted at them. I tell them I love them and we need to find a better way to communicate, we kiss and hug but the same thing happens again. They both don't take me seriously at all, its like an endless battle or a continuous power struggle and I'm just fed up. Sometimes I actually feel like I hate them which makes me feel awful. I don't hate them, they just drive me mad.
We argue over the T.V all the time, they want to watch the bloody football as there's always some really important game on which seems to be when ever I want to watch something, I always back down and let them watch the stupid game and in turn they dominate the living room.
I also have an 8 year old daughter from a different relationship that didn't work, 8 months ago my daughter was diagnosed with Leukemia and has regular Chemo this treatment will last until November 2014. My eldest constantly teases his sister which isn't helpful or productive in any way, when I tell him to stop he just tells me not to get involved at that point I want to smack him, when I get angry they both either laugh condescendingly or moan about the sound of my voice, at that point I want to jump out the window or whack both their heads together.
The constant arguing is not healthy for my daughter and is a terrible example, she's now showing the same attitude towards me, always answering back and just seems to be ruder when her brothers are around, when their not at home she's sweet as pie, not sure if she picks up on my frustration or just mimics her brothers behavior. She also calls them "stupid" or "idiots" as that's what she hears them call each other. I hate these belittling words being thrown around the house so casually. I need to prioritize my daughter right now.
They always have an opinion on everything I do, I don't date and haven't dated for over 5 years as its just too awkward and my eldest son is always checking up on me. They come and go as they please coming home anytime they like, I don't mind as its the only time I get some peace and to be honest its the only time I get on with my eldest son, usually because his had a few drinks and isn't so up-tight.
3 weeks ago it was my 39th birthday, my eldest son didn't get me anything not even a card when I said to him jokingly a card would have been nice, he freaked out and was extremely rude. We argued but this time I didn't say sorry, I wanted to see what he would do, well 3 weeks later and we are still not talking. He walks around the house all moody and grumpy and its driving me insane.
When I have told them to go to their Dads they basically roll their eyes at me and never take me seriously but now I've had enough and I feel its time for them to either move out or live with their Dad or their Gran otherwise I feel like I'm about to go insane, we are at a deadlock and I cant keep backing down and apologizing, ultimately I want them to be happy but not at the price of my sanity.
The only problem is, my sons don't want to go, I guess its because they wont have as much freedom there as they do here and they cant huff and puff as their father will put them in their place also because he lives in a different area but its not to far, just a short bus drive and my eldest drives anyway, I suppose it just wont be so convenient for them to chill with their friends or do the things they do locally i.e football, football and more football (by the way their Dad loves football too) I'm guessing these are the reasons as they wont tell me why they don't want to move there when I ask them, sometimes they agree and say "OK", they go to their Dads or their Grans but they don't take nothing with them and they keep coming back to collect their bloody football kit and then after a few nights there back and we start all over again.
I also want my life back, is that wrong ??? I have given them twenty years of my life (some may say the best years of my life) do I have to give them the next best twenty years too? As a mother am a destined to be a martyr to my kids for the rest of my life??? Or can I claim my life back when they hit 18 or 20 or 21 ??? Or should I just wait until their ready??? It's getting tougher out there especially for the youth, is it my job to shelter them until they can afford to move out independently ??? And why oh why do I feel so guilty all the time ??? After all they are grown arsed men right ???
Sorry for the long story but any advise or opinions will be greatly appreciated.

[SelfconfessedSpoonyFucker]

I think you are doing the right thing

IIWY I would also tell younger son that either things change (and detail the changes) or you will pack up his things too.

I think this is helpful
www.loveandlogic.com/pages/getalife.html

[PanpiperAtTheGatesOfYawn]

well done lollaby. your son will forgive you, you'll be able to sit down and talk about it without emotion in a couple of months. In the immediate future you'll feel like you'll be able to breathe.

And if your younger son starts acting up, remember, you can always point out that DS1 was asked to leave, no matter how soon he's going to uni, he can be too...

[Lueji]

BramshawHill
r e a d t h e u p d a t e s . . .

[FloatyBeatie]

Well done. That's terrific. Glad it has worked out well, and best wishes for your daughter's speedy recovery.

[lollaby]

"It's time you man up, stop enabling their behaviour & tell them to shape up or ship out"
mrssmartarse your right!!!

[BramshawHill]

I would sit them down, explain things need to change NOW or you will have to ask them to leave. State your problems calmly and rationally so they know you mean business, if they scoff and don't believe you, tell them their possessions will be packed in boxes by the end of the week, they have until then to find a place to stay.

By the end of the week, if they haven't changed, DO IT! Pack their stuff up, leave it in the hall for when they get home and take their house keys back.

They don't respect you because they've gotten away with it so far, the only way they'll change is if you force them to

[BramshawHill]

I would sit them down, explain things need to change NOW or you will have to ask them to leave. State your problems calmly and rationally so they know you mean business, if they scoff and don't believe you, tell them their possessions will be packed in boxes by the end of the week, they have until then to find a place to stay.

By the end of the week, if they haven't changed, DO IT! Pack their stuff up, leave it in the hall for when they get home and take their house keys back.

They don't respect you because they've gotten away with it so far, the only way they'll change is if you force them to

[KatyTheCleaningLady]

I'm glad your ex is helpful. That's wonderful.

I hope your younger son takes a hint and amends his behaviour. If not, chuck him out, too!

[Lueji]

Good on you.
At least the youngest will know you mean it when you say you'll pack his stuff!
That is worth a lot. :)

And you also did it for your DD.

[MimiSunshine]

You're doing the right thing. My brother was a bit like this. It's like they think "I'm an adult now you can't tell me off, or interfere" but forget that if they were truly adult they'd treat you and your home with more respect.
My mum let a lot of my brothers diresoectful behaviour eventually go as he would never back down and it wasn't sustainable to argue for days.

I think she (and you) were hoping that he (they) would wake up one day and realise how much of a brat he was being. It won't happen because there was no impetus to do so. So she packed his bags told him to find a place and move out. It wasn't the end of the relationship and now he's better, not perfect and still half expects to be waited on when he visits but boundaries were set and he grew up finally

[b4bunnies]

and when they have their own families, they'll understand how much you did for them.

[b4bunnies]

and its great to see you've already done it!

[b4bunnies]

i got about half way through your post and you had me fully convinced.
give them notice to quit - leave by 1 april. they're big enough to take it.

don't bother with house rules - you've left it 16 and 18 years too late.

[mrssmartarse]

I was in the army, married, expecting and running my own house by 18!

It's time you man up, stop enabling their behaviour & tell them to shape up or ship out

First sign of disrespect you pack their things and call their dad these little shits boys are treating you like a doormat

Sending be strong Op as you've got enough going on with regards your daughter right now xxx

[HermioneHatesHoovering]

They will be even lovelier from a distance, i.e. when they have moved out

[lollaby]

Also one last thing, this is for MisForMumNotMaid you got it spot on!! the only thing is I'm done with talking, its time for action, I read somewhere "That sometimes some people will never take the leap if they are not pushed" Its time to push.
Thank you for listening it means a lot, especially when friends and family just keep telling me how lucky I am to have such lovely boy's. They are lovely but they need to move out!!!

[lollaby]

I agree with PanpiperAtTheGatesOfYawn, SlowLooseChippings and JustinBsMum and all the other Mums who say enough chance's, I'm chanced out!!! I know I have let my younger son stay but when the eldest is not around there's some peace in the house and I know he will be out come September but if he does step out of line then to his Dad's or Grans or whatever, I don't even have the energy to care so much anymore.
To HoneyStepMum thanks for the hug and flowers :))
I would love to comment on everyone's response but obviously I cant.
Reply to Grinkly, the stress was here before she got sick, it calmed down for a while but in the last month as we have all adjusted to the situation, the same old shit has started again, answering back and the rest of it.
Don't get me wrong I do argue back and sometimes this leads to shouting matches mostly with my eldest, but it's not good and I cant do it anymore.
We have talked, come up with agreements, done chore rota's and money to be paid but to be honest its never that easy I have to constantly remind them and in the end their promise's and agreements were all a load of bollocks anyway.
If I'm really honest I think whats happened here is that at their Grans they have grown up used to seeing the women serving the men hand and foot, they are Muslim/Arabs (No offence to anyone out there, I'm a Muslim/Arab too only born and bred in London) What I'm saying is that culturally the women serve the men fall stop, things don't run like that at my place, I say that but then, I still cook for them, wash their clothes, do the shopping and all the cleaning (not their bedroom though) But I cook for my daughter so it seems only normal to cook for us all and trust me if I don't the kitchen will end up an absolute tip, especially if my youngest son is cooking, which then leads to more arguments. The difference at mine is that I argue with them about helping out with the chores and stuff, don't get me wrong my eldest does help out with the cleaning, his almost OCD with his cleaning, but he gets grumpy when I haven't cleaned the place and its a bit messy, he will start cleaning but he will make such a fuss so everyone can feel the tension and then start arguing with his brother calling him an idiot and a lazy fool, its just not worth it.
My younger son is lazy when it comes to cleaning and I'm always nagging at him. I think they think as a Mum I'm not doing a great job because dinner isn't always on the table and the house isn't always spotless. They haven't said this but I pick it up especially from my eldest but saying all this they really are good men outside the house, respectful, helpful, constructive, productive and all the things a good man should be, its just at home they expect so much and are just too fucking moody.
Anyway I've had enough, I'm done with trying to over analyze why they behave like this or that, It's about my Daughter now, I have to give her the next 20 years, they have had their share and they can go to their Grans and be served hand and foot because it's not gonna happen here anymore.
THANK'S TO ALL YOU LOVELY LADYS.

[lollaby]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to read and reply to my post, its confirmed what I knew I had to do.
I have spoken to my son's Dad and he is more then happy for them to live with him or his Mum and he agrees their attitude stick's.
I packed my eldest sons stuff and when he came home he was surprised to see his stuff in suitcases he didn't like it and made a lot of noise dragging the case's down the stairs, when I approached to speak to him he just told me not to speak to him and walked out the house very angry. I guess its done!! It wasn't that hard after all, but I think he hates me right now. I didn't get the time to pack my younger sons stuff and when he walked in today, I just didn't have the hart to tell him he had to go, I figured he'll be in Uni in 5 months so I will leave it for a few days but if he steps out of line his stuff will be packed too.
I suppose this is what they call "Kicking them out the nest" But its tough love all the way now, enough is enough my baby girl needs to heal and need me to be strong not stressed.
Thank you all again

[StuntGirl]

Boisterous and naughty? These are adults, not toddlers.

[Grinkly]

Perhaps the DD's serious illness is raising stress levels in the house and the DSs are being more 'boisterous' and 'naughty' than usual because they don't know how to handle it. They still need some firm boundaries though.

[HoneyStepMummy]

OP- sending you a virtual hug and some . I can relate somewhat because I see myself being in the same position in a couple of years.I don't think it's as simple as just telling them to get out of the house. They're your kids and you love them, but them living in their childhood home as adults isn't working out.
How is your relationship with their Dad or Gran? Could you invlove them in this? It really is time for them to change their ways or get out, but it seems like a) you need some support and help in getting them out and b) you need to come up with a game plan to help them get out. Your youngest is off to Uni in September, so doesn't that mean he'll be moving out? Do you think you might get on better with your older son once he's gone?
I second HeebeJeeby's suggestion of mediation. And they really need to grow up and understand how sick their sister is.

[Cricrichan]

I think they are behaving like this because they can. It's your house and your tv. Tell them what you want to watch and if they're not happy about it then they can get their own tv - simple.

Do they help out around the house, cook, do laundry etc? If they don't, then make sure they do. If they refuse then stop doing it for them.

I think you should start going out and dating. You have two babysitters so now is the perfect time for you. Give you all a little break from each other and make you all appreciate each other more.

[JustinBsMum]

My take is that they don't KNOW that you are actually doing them a favour by making them stand on their own two feet. So discussing what's best with them can be a bad move.
But there is, mixed with that, the untying of mother's apron strings at this age where they think they are adult but without the responsibilities. This can make them rude and dismissive of you, but you need to make it clear you are an individual with your own needs and wishes, and, obviously, that includes living without being ignored or having to listen to slanging matches in your own home.

Move them out.

[seriouscakeeater]

Get them our hun, there old enough and big enough, I had my own place at 16 xx.

[HebeJeeby]

Hi - have you thought about family mediation - it's not just for couples who are separating. YOu can talk about the issues at hand and together work at a solution that you can all live with.