Getting a tiny bit feminist on the teacher's ass!

[SolidGoldBrass]

I didn't raise my voice. I didn't unshave my legs or anything.
It just so happened that DS and I bumped into his class teacher at the playground this afternoon and we had a pleasant chat; the teacher turns out to have DC of her own, of a similar age to DS. She mentioned something about girls being very different to boys. I very very gently said that this was in fact rubbish and suggested she read Delusions of Gender, and added that I thought every teacher should read it as a lot of the stuff about gender difference you hear these days was not only wrong but dangerous...

I'm going to be 'one of THOSE mothers' forever, aren't I?

[LapsusLinguae]

Cordelia studied Experimental Psychology at Oxford University, followed by an M.Phil in Criminology at Cambridge University. She was awarded a Ph.D in Psychology from University College London. Between 2002 to 2011 she held research positions at Monash University, the Australian National University, then Macquarie University.

[http://cordeliafine.com/about.html from her website]

Those who have brought up DC of the opposite sex - did they watch TV? Think about the male/female roles on CBeebies. I had a friend who said their DD liked looking in the mirror and it did not come from her. I picked up a princess comic with pictures of mirrors/brushes etc and said "look at this!" - "oh said my friend".

[bowerbird]

Larrygr was really shocked at the middle link on Scottish education, which seems to have accepted wholesale the idea that girls and boys are just different. BTW it appears it was pretty much based on the Baron-Cohen study, which has been completely discredited.

OP, I totally support you. I'm one of those mothers too. Long may we be a pain in the ass!

[LapsusLinguae]

~"Oh" said my friend

[larrygrylls]

Lapsus,

So, has the neurological community accepted the book by Cordelia Fine? I don't think so. It is a feminist cri de guerre but when psychologists start critiqueing neurologists, you know they are way beyond their sphere of competence.

There is a lot of research in the other direction and the three links give their own links to proper peer reviewed studies. There are very few studies which give absolute answers, especially in such a controversial field. However, Cordelia Fine is writing a popular book propagandising an agenda. To pretend it is the last scientific word in the argument of sexual neurological differences is bizarre.

[Wingdingdong]

So what do the Delusions of Gender fans make of Pink Brain, Blue Brain, then? Written by a feminist neuroscientist who intended to show that the genders are the same, it actually ends up concluding that differences are hard wired in our brains due to hormones, etc. e.g. Boys get a sudden surge of testosterone at around 4 or 5. Not much you can do about that.

It's particularly interesting because Eliot argues that we should not ignore the differences but exploit them to achieve full potential. If girls and boys learn better in different environments then we should ensure that they have access to those environments. This goes beyond such superficialities as "DD plays with trains" or "DS likes dressing up as a princess" to the core of how children learn; studies demonstrate boys tend to do better in short bursts interspersed with physical activity; girls tend to do better in longer activities with social interaction. Sure there are exceptions - that's why the word 'tend' is used!

Fwiw, my DD's favourite toys include her train set. However, she plays with it in a very different way to the boys at nursery/playgroup (3/4 yos). She constructs narratives, people take the train to go on journeys, the trains talk to each other. The boys bash them together, stage crashes and see how fast they'll go. Do I say that boys and girls are the same based on DD's love of trains or do I say they're totally different based on the activity rather than object? Or is there a spectrum, with gender tendencies rather than absolutes, and these should be catered for rather than denied outright if we really want to get the best out of and for our children, whether girls or boys?

Btw, DS's favourite toy is a baby doll. He particularly likes banging it on the head with a hammer then kissing it better. No idea what that means!

[VenusRising]

There are huge differences in men and women SGB, and this is why men are paid 20% more for doing the same work.

That's the only reason I can see for the pay gap?

[LapsusLinguae]

I'm hoping the fact that the only man on the thread seems to want to put women off Cordelia Fine's book will be counter productive and those that haven't read it will be intrigued!

I'm not sure who has said the book is "the last scientific word".


I would urge everyone to re-read what seeker wrote.

"this school is going to do it's damdest to show them that despite what the world tells them in this school, they are not going to be defined by gender"

seeker - good on your DD for raising this issue. Does she have some ideas to change the situation? Get teachers to think about class discussion being more gender balanced?

[SigmundFraude]

'Baron-Cohen study, which has been completely discredited.'

By who?

The current research suggests that male/female brains are wired very differently, however I doubt that feminist theorists will be having their 'Ricardian Moment' anytime soon.

Just as an aside, I would no more want a feminist teaching my sons than a Scientologist, extreme christian or BNP candidate.

[juule]

"There are always exceptions of course; "tomboys", and quiet studious boys who prefer to play with dolls or play at teachers etc. "

Of course there will be "exceptions" because childrenare different.
I could say "roses are red....but of course there will be exceptions"

[HandbagCrab]

It wouldn't matter if there were innate differences between men and women if we didn't live in a hierarchical, patriachical society where any difference between men and women (whether nature, nurture or imagined) is used to show that men are better than women and should therefore get paid more, have more opportunities, do less shitwork and generally be valued more for the 'traits that are male' that they embody.

Personally, I don't agree that males and females are so different that one can draw a line down the middle but anecdotally I can see they are socialised and conditioned from birth to have certain clothes, toys and experiences that would create slight differences which will be magnified over time.

[juule]

By the age of the subjects of the study male/ female brains might very well be wired differently due to environmental influences. Are there differences at birth?

[seeker]

Lapsus, they have regular visiting lecturers coming into the school. She's going to ask if the school will fund a speaker on this issue-she's got a few names to offer. And she is going to suggest some workshops for new year 12s next year. It's an all boy's school with a mixed 6th.But think she wants to find out whether the school see it as a problem or not before she plans her next move!

[LapsusLinguae]

Wingdingdong in pink brain blue brain the author shows that there is massive range amongst boys and amongst girls and yes there are measurable differences between the tops of the bell curves for certain things but loads of overlap.

Also lots of things measured come after a few years of socialisation.

When people think characteristics are set at birth they are less likely to look at ways of broadening them in their charges. However the brain is plastic. So encourage those who have been playing Lego (statistically more boys) to do crafts and vice versa.

[AbigailAdams]

I often wonder why some people are so invested in believing that men and women are so different. What is in it for them?

[seeker]

"Just as an aside, I would no more want a feminist teaching my sons than a Scientologist, extreme christian or BNP candidate."

Not sure what to say to that. What on earth do people think feminists are!

[AbigailAdams]

Perhaps Sigmund would like her daughters to grow up and still be considered less than men seeker. each to their own.

[landofsoapandglory]

I worked with a teacher, very temporarily, who had very strong views about how boys and girls were different. She'd say " you'll never find a boy who likes writing", my DS1 was the county young writer of the year at that time! She'd tell me girls weren't as good at maths! I found her views appalling and tod the HT so when I left.

I don't buy the girls and boys are different rubbish. I have 2 boys, they are very different. My sister and I are poles apart, it is people who are different.

[Dahlen]

I have a DD and a DS. I have tried to bring them up to believe that while men and women are biologically different, there is nothing they can or cannot do simply because their gender determines it so (save perhaps pregnancy and lactation).

I am very, very aware of this and constantly reinforcing it. I am fighting a losing battle. I simply cannot undo all the pressure my DC get from their friends, my friends and family, teachers and group leaders (albeit well-meaning), TV (even though they are limited quite severely by most people's standards), even their bloody reading material from school/library. Most people aren't even aware they are doing it.

To some extent I think we have to accept that conforming to social norms is a fundamental element of having a successful life, and gender norms are part of that. Until such time as the world is ready for complete 100% gender neutrality, encouraging children to step out of those norms can run the risk of making life significantly more difficult for them. Unfortunately, though, it requires some brave souls to do just that to redefine what is 'normal' and improve things for everyone else.

I've resigned myself to the fact that my DD is likely to end up conforming to notions of femininity in terms of appearance, but as long as I can bring her up to realise that her worth comes from herself (not what she looks like), that she can choose any career she likes (regardless of whether it's traditionally male or female dominated), and that it will be possible for her to have children and a career as long as she manages to either earn enough to go it alone, or chooses a partner who will support her choices and not expect her to default to secondary-earner position just because she's a woman (although if she wants to do that, that's ok too).

[seeker]

As I said. It doesn't actually matter in the short term whether boys and girls are hardwired or socialised to be different. The fact remains that by the time they arrive at school they are different- anecdotes about individual children notwithstanding. And what we do about that is crucial.

[NotADragonOfSoup]

Why is it so wrong to think males and females are different? "Different" is not the same as being unequal.

[larrygrylls]

Lapsus,

"Wingdingdong in pink brain blue brain the author shows that there is massive range amongst boys and amongst girls and yes there are measurable differences between the tops of the bell curves for certain things but loads of overlap. "

Well, of course. Both statistically and anecdotally we should all know that some girls can run faster than some girls, despite men obviously being faster than women. So, if you cannot see that is going to more than extend into slight (but important) neurological differences, then you are clearly missing something.

The point of these studies, one hopes, is to work with what one has to get the best out of every individual, be they female or male. And also to provide schooling appropriate to to each individual. Any agenda is not helpful in this regard.

I don't understand why so many people are determined to deny differences between men and women, despite it being fairly clear, both anecdotally and scientifically. Different is not better or worse, it is merely different.

As an amusing aside, it is amazing how many people on this thread have boisterous daughters and shy and introverted sons. I have not heard a single person on the "gender neutral" agenda admit to a boisterous son and a "girly" girl. Surely there must be one?!

[Dahlen]

Larry, my DD likes to play with cars and climb trees but is convinced she has to do this wearing as much pink and glitter as possible. If that's not social conditioning, I don't know what is.

My DS OTOH is about as typically 'male' as it's possible to get, apart from his proclivity to do it wearing a pink tutu (unless other boys are around of course, and then 'girly stuff' is 'eww').

[drjohnsonscat]

My DS (3) went to the dr this morning for his jabs. He got two stickers for bravery which he chose - one car one and one flower one. He loves cars but he doesn't yet know he's not supposed to love flowers. On the way home he saw a friend and showed him his stickers - the friend said "why did you get a girl one?". DS had no idea what he meant.

People are always saying to me "oh they are so different aren't they?" about my girl and boy but actually, no they are not really. They like playing with the same toys - especially the train set, they like acting out stories, they fight over the scooter. Neither of them are really into balls. They are both currently wearing pink nail polish.

Other people will have different stories about how their girls and boys are really different but children are different. You did the right thing OP but people are determined about this so those of us who do not have those very different boys and very different girls will just have to smile and ignore.

[seeker]

"Why is it so wrong to think males and females are different? "Different" is not the same as being unequal."

Unfortunately in this context it does. Which is why it is an issue which needs to be addressed, not ignored.

[drjohnsonscat]

Also agree with dahlen.

The problem is not that they are deemed to be different but that they are both restricted from fulfilling their own personalities by social conditioning. My son wanted the flower sticker and now he knows he shouldn't have chosen that one. A minor thing but it spills over into every area of life and becomes very limiting.

The one thing I am grateful for is that my son is exposed to "girl things" because he has a big sister and he really enjoys those things (nail polish, putting on plays and making up stories, sticking glitter on things) and my daughter is exposed to "boy things" because she has a brother and she really enjoys those things (the train sets they make together, the tussling they do together, the races they have). Hopefully that will do something to keep their horizons wide open - but it will be a drop in the ocean compared to the conditioning that happens elsewhere.