To think that that those that enable bad behaviour are as bad as the people that behave in a bad or rude manner?

[Itsjustalot]

I don't understand why people pussyfoot around those types of people.

I worked for several years in a busy office. One woman there, doing a similar job to the rest of us, had a bit of an attitude problem and was rude, snappy and downright nasty at times to many of the other women. At various points she made some colleagues actually cry. It was all just dismissed, by staff and management as 'just her way'. She spoke badly to me a couple of times and I let it go, then one day when I'd not been there long she was very rude to me when I dared to place a message for her on the wrong side of her desk. I told her never to speak to me like that again, and whilst she sulked for a few weeks with me, she did eventually start being very respectful towards me. I was the only one, to my knowledge, who ever stood up to her.

More recently I have come across a woman at a toddler group I take ds to, who is very rude and abrupt with people. She's very moody, and makes put down comments. And again everyone pussyfoots around her. I tend to stay away from her, as its a large group, but everyone lamely puts up with her comments. If any child argues with her dd she starts ranting and raving at the mum of the other child. And yet still everyone flocks around her and speaks to her each week. She refuses to take her turn on the washing up rota and everyone tolerates it, and then other weeks she totally takes over the toy clearing up at the end and snaps a people if they do it wrongly. I am going to end up saying something to her at some point, or possibly leaving the group as she is totally ruling it and is a total cow! No one has a good word to say about her but they all enable her behaviour.

[AgentZigzag]

Don't you see the irony Itsjustalot?

They don't care what other people think of them either, and that's the problem.

Caring what other people think of you isn't a weakness.

People don't look up to you as being a shining light, making sure other people know when their behaviour has been less than standard, they just see you as a bit uncomfortable to be around because you take what other people say to you to heart too much.

It's difficult for me to say that because I know I'm like that myself sometimes, but please don't think you're doing it to make the world a better place, you're adding to the shit in it.

You are coming across as one of the types you're talking about, is that why people are being funny with you do you think?

[Itsjustalot]

Yes but as I've mentioned before upthread Freudians, the point I'm making is when people keep being all friendly and nice to someone that is horrible to them. I'm not talking merely polite, but all chummy.

You've said that you back off from people that try to bully you, so IMO you're not enabling them.

[Itsjustalot]

In what way am I coming across as one of the types I'm talking about ZigZag? I don't think that was a very fair assumption to make of me tbh. No one is being funny with me either, I'm not quite sure how you've come to that conclusion. I did say in my first post that the people I've referred to are like it with everyone.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here as we are clearly on totally different pages about it :)

[AgentZigzag]

You can tell people off for being rude or whatever, but you can't expect them to like it, or other people like you putting them in a situation they'd rather not be in.

We're in the same book, but I agree, not on the same page.

[Itsjustalot]

I don't expect people to like it. It would be naive of anyone to expect the person they are confronting to like it. But it does need to be done. I for one won't be treated shoddily and from the replies on here I'm not alone. If the confronted person doesn't like it or continues to treat others badly that's up to them but I will not stand for it. And in my case, it's worked whenever I've confronted people, which actually has been very rarely!

And again if others want to think badly of me for refusing to be spoken to like dogs poo, again that's their call, although I've not had that happen to my knowledge. I think it's a good thing not to be overly bothered about what others think. I care to a point and wouldn't want to intentionally hurt anyone's feelings, but I won't put up with shoddy treatment to curry favour with people.

[Itsjustalot]

Oh and people that behave badly rely on people being accused of being 'over sensitive' and 'taking things to heart' to again enable their behaviour.

[Latara]

YABU to say 'enabling' is ''as bad'' as nasty / bitchy / arsey behaviour... but YANBU because IMO it is nearly as bad...

Itsjustalot I know exactly the types of situations you are talking about - could be my workplace...

....but Agentzigzag you have a point because by pulling people up (in a mature, polite, adult manner) on their bad behaviour - i'm now seen as ''creating conflict in the team'' on the ward where i work.

I may need to change workplace & job role (the alternative is ill health retirement - at 36! ffs) but that's due to MH problems (definitely exacerbated by situations like that in my workplace).
Bitchy, aggressive etc people make me quite paranoid, then i get irrational, then suicidal... that's my problem though.

People who are relaxed, pleasant, work hard but only get stressed in a 'nice' way & don't use 'stress' as an excuse to be nasty... i work well with them; if only all my colleagues had been like that.

Taking Anti-Depressants made me less inhibited about challenging bad behaviour, & i tried to do so in the nicest way possible.
But the enablers were too busy trying to keep the bullies happy to see that it would be a positive thing to challenge their behaviour.
Maybe they have Stockholm Syndrome!!

More & more staff keep leaving because the behaviour is enabled rather than dealt with. That's going to mean that the managers (who also either behave badly or enable such behaviour) will have a big problem - maybe it serves them right; i don't know & tbh am past caring.

I just hope i can find another job where there is a better atmosphere.

[AgentZigzag]

I know exactly what you mean Latara, I've been in similar situations myself.

Maybe that's it? That it seems so unfair that they can behave as total nobbers and everyone panders to it, but when you act in (what can be perceived as) a similarly nobbish way you're the one who gets slated for it.

Deciding to tell someone something you know they're not going to want to hear is a risky strategy, and I don't believe for a minute you really don't care whether people don't like you for it OP, because you're probably thinking 'well they're nobbers, I don't care what they think of me', but challenging behaviour involves more people than just the person you're pulling up.

It's an uncomfortable truth that people don't always like it when the boat's rocked, you might not think you mind the repercussions, but I think they're wider than you imagine (and I find putting that PA smiley a bit creepy, your face saying one thing but your voice saying another, the smiling assassin. It's one of the reasons I'm not keen on other people when I can plainly see their non verbal saying one thing but they're telling me something else.)

[Megatron]

I also get what Latara is saying. Regarding the playgroup thing I would just steer clear of someone like that, the situation would not be important enough to me to warrant wasting my breath on a person like this, especially in front of children as there would inevitably be a 'drama'.

But in a work situation it's different. I was in a situation when I was working with a group of people who tolerated one woman's appalling behaviour. They would moan and groan about it etc and I would ask them why they let her treat them like that but it was always 'to keep the peace'. The time came when it was my turn for this woman's wrath and I told her on no uncertain terms that I was not a mug and would not be treated like one. Initially everyone was 'oh well done for speaking up' but very soon I became considered the one who was a trouble maker because I had upset the apple cart. I will never understand it and I saw quite quickly that this was the way these people seemed comfortable. I didn't, so I left.

[Latara]

At first i tried taking the rudest people to one side & asking nicely ''why did you say that? It's not a good way to talk to a colleague. Is everything ok with you - is there a reason you don't seem so happy?'' - that kind of thing.
Reasonable & mature IMO.

But the bitchier types learn fast.
If i questioned anything they told me to do then they would say a similar thing like above but in front of the whole ward.
(btw - As a Staff Nurse i'm responsible for my own practice; therefore it's good practice to question things i'm unsure are right; not to just blindly follow the orders of a bossier Nurse.)

By following the NMC Code & questioning others' (wrong) decisions - it got their backs up.
May i add - this was a tiny minority of (sadly) women - the vast majority of staff there are lovely but ground down by the bitchy types.

Other staff said i was ''brave'' for standing up for myself, but wouldn't join me in standing up for themselves, in fact they'd still join in any bitchy gossip going.

I think that people want to always be part of the 'in' group; even if that 'group' or 'clique' is actually bad for the work team.

[Itsjustalot]

Funny how 'in' groups are often led by an arse hole isn't it?

I've luckily not had any bad experiences when I've confronted people. It didn't affect my relationships with colleagues at all when I confronted my colleague. I didn't do it in front of other people though, so not sure if that makes a difference.

I personally would rather risk a confronted person having a hissy fit when they don't like what they hear, than put up with their behaviour.

[Itsjustalot]

Latara, your situation was probably worse as from what you've said there was more than one 'bitch', which I think does make it harder as then you have the ganging up mentality going on, like you've described.

[Gentleness]

What if it really isn't clear if the poor behaviour is linked to a mental health problem? We're dealing with this with someone at the moment and the group attitude is that he's on a (perceived) bipolar swing and there's no point in confronting him until he gets a diagnosis and help. I'm not sure about that. It's still been appalling behaviour and not telling him it's not acceptable to avoid his tantrums seems somewhat enabling to me. I'm torn on this.

[Latara]

Gentleness 2 of you from 'the group' could speak quietly to this man & ask if anything is wrong, because you've noticed he doesn't seem happy due to his behaviour.
If he's a colleague & you have an Occupational Health Dept then contact them - a nurse from there can assess him & make a dr's appt if necessary.

Don't try to 'diagnose' another person.

Also just because he's got possible MH problems - it doesn't excuse nasty behaviour... if i behaved badly when i'm ill then i'd rather know than not know IYSWIM; i'd take time off, get help, etc etc.
I'd be mortified to think that people tolerated bad behaviour from me just because of my MH problems (i don't think i've been 'bad' to anyone except myself though luckily).

This man may feel the same way.

Alternatively he could just be an arsehole!

[Gentleness]

Yes, that's been happening and he's being supported in making and getting to appointments etc. His behaviour patterns are way out at the moment and distinctive but I agree that a amateur diagnosis is unwise - it does help us cope though!

I too would be mortified if people put up with horrible behaviour from me because I've suffered from depression, and if challenged would see it as a sign I needed to evaluate my state of mind. He's seeing it as an excuse instead, after getting angry about anyone daring to challenge him. And I'm not convinced at all that it is an excuse.

[digerd]

I too intensely dislike how nasty people are pandered to. Just a bully with her cronies - good for you to put her in her place, which worked.

[digerd]

Strangely, or not, I can tolerate a man being bullyish, but not another woman as I find those than any man

[digerd]

ps opps far worse than any man

[Fakebook]

Not the same. Keeping quiet for the sake of peace is not a bad thing and I'm sure people keep quiet to avoid drama.

I'm not one to keep quiet if someone was being rude like that. I'd wait until their path crossed with mine and then give them a right talking down to. I have done this in the past when I see someone being unfair. I think it comes from being bullied when I was in school. I stand up for myself and others without a second thought these days.

[HoleyGhost]

It is a status thing - you get the dominant alpha and his/her hangers on. It is unpleasant and often disfunctional. It is also very hard to challenge.

YANBU about the enablers being as bad

[TheSmallClanger]

One of the worst pandered-to arseholes I've worked with was a low-status man. He was horrifically rude and uncooperative and frequently caused others to get into trouble through his actions (or lack thereof). Yet, there were loads of people within the organisation who would always defend him, claiming he was "really busy" and "under pressure". He was of retirement age, and that was used as an excuse too, especially by the older, longer-standing members of staff.

Actually, in that place, there was a bit of a culture of older, long-standing staff being quite hostile and unhelpful to younger people.

[Soditall]

I challenge them all I'm a moody bints worst nightmare and proud of that fact.

When people act like that it's a form of bullying and I can't stand bully's.They come of far worse with me if they pick on someone they know won't or can't stand up to them,then I really let rip

So YANBU.

[Portofino]

i did a Transactional Analysis course years ago which was REALLY useful in dealing with difficult people. Description here It is a matter of not changing people but changing how you respond to them. I found it very helpful.

[HoleyGhost]

Most seriously, this enabling explains how Saville and those like him got away with it

[AgentZigzag]

Don't be ridiculous Holey, this is nothing like people ignoring someone sexually assaulting a child