To wish people wouldn't call schools shit or....

[seeker]

....shitholes or really horrible words like that? There are good and bad schools, but they all have children in them and at least some teachers who are doing their best.

[cory]

I have used the term to refer to dd's junior school but I hope that I have only ever done so in a context that made it clear that by "school" I was referring to the school management and their ethos, not to individual teachers and children

in the same way as when the school (= the management) talks about "our ethos" they are actually referring to the ethos of the management, not of every single child in Yr 5.

in the same way as I might describe a company as shit if they pollute the environment and circumvent employment law- and would still hope to have it understood that I am not referring to every single employee including the cleaners and the man who services the computers

if by "the school" you understand the same thing as "the school" understands in their official correspondence, i.e. the people in charge, then I shall, with all due respect continue to refer to dd's junior school as a shit school

but I shall also point out that the children and parents were lovely and that the teachers were well meaning though not always with the courage to stand up against the management

(though when it comes to openly flouting the Disability Discrimination Act, I would say that any teacher who lacks the courage to speak out is, actually, a bit shit- as is any citizen who stands by and sees a vulnerable person maltreated)

and when I speak of dd's current school as a lovely school, I am referring to the same thing- the ethos, the management, the people who decide the ethos of the school- not every single teenager in Yr 10

[seeker]

I don't mind swearing at all. It's just the use of shit hole to describe a place where 5 year olds spend their day is, I think, a step too far.

[MsKittyFane]

jumping: "shit" schools are generally those populated by children who have parent/s who do not support the school. Thus no discipline; the children rule the roost; that parents undermine the authority of the school.
Using the word 'shit' is a bit but you are spot on with the rest of it. Those doing all the hoiking and huffing obviously haven't met this type of family and their offspring.
Teachers don't need to label the little 'lambs'. They label themselves through their actions, attitudes and behaviour.

[EdithWeston]

Colouringin: If a post was unfairly characterising a school, based on prejudice not evidence, it doesn't matter whether it's done in normal MN-speak, iambic pentameter, txt, or pedant-proof formal drafting.

Complaining about swearing on MN is like channelling Knut.

Trying to demonise one phrase, in a separate thread to the usage you didn't like, seems a bit pointless too.

[MadamFolly]

There are many reasons why a school can be bad.

High levels of deprivation means that the children can be very badly behaved so teacher spend a lot of every lesson fire-fighting behaviour and unable to teach.

Senior management can be very ineffectual and crap which means that no consequences are followed up for bad behaviour, the teachers are undermined and the pupils (rightly) think they rule the roost.

It can also be difficult for challenging schools to attract good teachers so they may have poorer quality teaching.

[MadamFolly]

I do think that the senior leadership team is probably the most important factor in maintaining standards. Poor organisation and a behaviour policy that is not adhered to can send a good school spiralling downwards in a matter of months.

[manchester00]

Cory I think you had good reason to say that. Read enough of your posts to know that.
However, in general its not a nice thing to say.
I do on occassions have cause to complain about individual things done by the school and I am really not keen on head but no, it definately is not a shithole.

[GetOrfMoiiLand]

My dd goes to what a lot of MNers would call a 'shit' school, it is a comp in an area where they have the 11 plusn so the city has 4 grammar schools and the rest are secondary moderns. People pull faces when I tell them where dd goes to school.

It has been a brilliant school - I moved her there from an exalted selective school which let her flounder with undoiagnosed dyslexia at the bottom of the heap, and where she was bullied horribly, which the school was completely ineffectual about.

Dd went to her 'shit' school a nervous wreck, I had my doubts but it has been great. Really supportive and passionate teachers, a zero tolerance culturr towards bullying and kids who love the school. Yes, it takes kids from areas with high social deprevation and the are issue surrounding that, and to look at the league tables you would avoid like the plague, but I cannot speak highly enough of the school.

[valiumredhead]

Well ds went to a 'shit' school, it was horrendous and we moved house so he could go to a different school. I didn't want my 5 year old spending his day there and I don't mind how it is described, it was an appalling school and the children deserve much better. Some schools are really awful.

[BonnieBumble]

YANBU.

However the secondary school I went to really was the pits. I don't think schools like that still exist these days.

[JosephineCD]

We used to have good schools in this country, the best in the world in fact. Unfortunately the Labour government and the teaching unions decided it wasn't fair on the kids that didn't go to them so got rid of them. Now we have the highest percentage of NEETs in western europe, with most 16 year olds incapable of boiling an egg, let alone holding down a job. And then people criticise people who send their kids private...

[BonnieBumble]

So it's labours fault then is it Joesphine?

Funny that, all the "shit" schools when I was growing up went downhill in the Thatcher era.

[nymets]

didn't thatcher get rid of the grammars?

[valiumredhead]

There are still grammar schools.

[nymets]

the majority of grammars

[BoneyBackJefferson]

JosephineCD

Becareful whilst banging that drum, you do it so hard you may go through it and hurt yourself.

[BonnieBumble]

nymets, Thatcher left it to individual councils to decide whether they wanted to retain selective education and most council chose not to. Neither the Tories or Labour are in favour of grammar schools.

[EndoplasmicReticulum]

As a teacher, and an adult, I would agree with the OP.

However, I have been guilty of using this description for the secondary school that I went to.

For me, as someone who was reasonably intelligent and wanted to do well, it was "shit". I got good results, but I think that was despite the school not because of it, and it was not an experience that I enjoyed. At all.

[Mrsjay]

DDs High school is supposed to be a 'bad' school my girls thrived there, children IMO opinion will learn if they want to 'shit' school or not ,

[WilsonFrickett]

My DS started out in what I had labelled a 'shit' school and it was utterly brilliant. Far, far more supportive and inclusive than his new school which is in a small village and has coasted by because of its small size / relatively high resources and doesn't really know what to do with anyone who doesn't fit their expected mould.

[Mrsjay]

too not to,

DDs primary was a 'good' school and dd2 struggled there she has dyspraxia and i felt the learning support didnt help her , as soon as she hit secondary the learning support was amazing ,

[Mrsjay]

were*

[valiumredhead]

mrsjay I completely disagree.

[Mrsjay]

DO you valium thats just my experience with the school though so i maybe talking rubbish but i do think a child can learn even if the school hasnt the best reputation, everyones experience is different,

[valiumredhead]

No, I think some kids can learn in any environment IF the teaching is good. My experience is that some teachers are dire and the kids couldn't learn a thing.