Funerals/unpaid leave....and 'respect'

[troisgarcons]

Run with me on this one before the pitchforks come out.

Many of us get to a certain age when funerals of friends parents (and our own parents) become more frequent. These are people who, had us in their houses growning up and quite often you still maintain a good relationship with.

Most of us that work have a certain flexibily, either to swap shifts or may be work a lunch hour and leave early etc if there is a childcare issue or medical appt.

However it's becoming more and more prevalent that if you verify there is a funeral you would like to attend (the only exceptions being parent/spouse/child) that you are expected to take unpaid leave.

There was a time when it was expected that a business would shut down for the afternoon of a funeral and every one went. Simply because its respectful.

Over the past three years, some long serving albeit retired staff where I work have passed on. The funerals were at 3pm, same time as the school hours finish. Only two staff were allowed to go to 'represent' despite lessons would have been easily covered.

There was a funeral recently I wanted to go to (parent of a dear friend) and I offered to swap 2 lunch breaks for an early getaway. Refused point blank and told to take unpaid leave as flexi time wasn't ever going to happen and I shouldnt ask for it.

Similarly, at BILS workplace (large blue chip company), a woman lost her husband and was told she would get 3 days paid leave to 'sort things' and she was expected back at her desk on the 4th day.

Im not suggesting people should become professional mourners, and seek to attend funerals for the hell of it/on a whim but where the heck has respect gone?

[C0smos]

I live overseas and I realise how generous UK employers are when it comes to time off.
Our policy is 3 days for the death of a parent, husband or wife or child! And yes they do enforce it.
My husband was lucky and got 3 days paternity leave when I had DS, I got a phone call from HR the day after I had him 6 weeks premature to say they weren't paying me anymore and did I want to use my annual leave up instead - nice!

[MindtheGappp]

That's crazy, 3G.

We have often have 2 funerals a week at our church. It would be totally unreasonable for my employer or colleagues to allow me several hours a week off work. What if everyone else were to do that too?

I do go to most funerals at my church if they fall during the holidays, but I don't take time off. There are other ways of paying respects.

[TheRealTillyMinto]

i went to work on the day of my dad's funeral. i did not take any time off beyond the ceremony & the wake. it felt right for me to wait for the grief to come in its own time. people told me i needed to give myself time to grief & it did not make any sense to me.

i had/have phases of grief but it comes & goes on its own timescale. the 'best' part was when i wrote i list of everything my father had taught me & realised how much i owed him. the saddest part was listening to johnny cash's hurt.

my dad had lost control over ALL of his muscles so he could not even swallow food without chocking. he lost his 'sense of body' so his limbs moved by themselves & he would damage himself or hit himself.

it was an undignified & shit was to go & paid time off work is a complete irrelevancy. when my time comes, anyone who does not want to take the time off work unpaid, is welcome not to!

[troisgarcons]

I feel really awful about starting this thread ... it's opened up so many raw emotions. Apologies to those who have revisited some very raw times..


MY original Op was driving at : if there is the ability at work to juggle hours or a willing collegue cover then you should be allowed to go. Most people are decent and would make up their time and cover a collegue in return. A blanket 'no' isnt always appropriate. Of course if you have made up your time, you havent caused any loss financially to the business.

O/T there was a thread somewhre else on MN about mad teachers you know ..... one poster commented she went to church school and the priest would march a class out to fill the pews up if he felt a funeral wasnt well enough attended to make up the numbers! Really it is about respect for your friend/collegue, the wider community.

I do go to funerals (of a much older generation) and you will get their own children and spouses there (in their 60's and retired) most of the grandchilden (in their 30's and 40's) but no one else because 'they cant afford to take a day off work'. Personally I think thats really sad that you cant be respectful because you will be penalised for it.


Perhaps my opinions are very coloured by the fact I come from a small town, that would shut down, as would the out laying hamlets and EVERYBODY went - and still does. Close community mentality.

[MindtheGappp]

It never fails to amaze me how people read things that are not there and ignore things that are.

I am all for unpaid leave up to a reasonable time (and there can be no standard definition of this as everyone's situation is different).

I don't think it is reasonable for an employer paying for weeks on end for an absent employee.

When my mother died this year, it never occurred to me to take more than three days off. My brother was taking care of the arrangements, so I just had to show up. I couldn't have afforded to be with family from the point of death as we were paying over £200 per night for the hotel. My job was to host the pre-funeral get together at our hotel, and relatives were waiting for us as we drove in.

Also, I would not have wanted my children off school for more than a few days, and DH, even if I had non-functioning, was perfectly fine. It would have been unreasonable for him to take endless days off.

It would not have been fair on my employer, colleagues, or clients, to take a long time off - when I didn't need it.

I don't think many white collar employees are in a very different situation.

I would be interested to see if there were any patterns to be formed by those who want long periods of paid time vs those who favour a more minimalist attitude.

[Helenagrace]

Some people are unbelievably callous about bereavement - charitably I can only assume they've never lost anyone. I didn't have a particularly close relationship with my father and don't consider I was very hard hit when he passed away 4 years ago. I did, however, need a lot of time to sort out his estate and other affairs. There's no way I could have done that in three days. Fortunately I work for myself.

When I was a manager in the NHS I had a stand up row with another manager over the way I'd handled a bereavement. A middle manager in a directorate I was overseeing as holiday cover lost his daughter at 25 weeks and his wife was in ITU with huge complications. I instantly told him to take 2 weeks parental leave, 2 weeks compassionate leave and 2 weeks annual leave and then come and talk to us if that wasn't enough. When the directorate boss came back he let rip and told me there was no need for him to have all that time off because there were no other children at home to care for and there wasn't much he could do about his wife! I still don't know how I managed not to slap him that day.

[NinkyNonker]

DH's father died unexpectedly a few years back (how inconsiderate eh), DH is the youngest of 4 and it hit him quite hard. It was very quick, something in his heart went when he was in the boat and he died a few hours later, I don't think many of the brothers got there in time.

Dh's work were great by all accounts, said take what you need. His parents had known each other since birth, and had been each other's only love so it devastated his mum, she'd never known life author him. As the only brother without a family DH stayed with her for a few months to help get house sold etc (she lived a few hundred miles away from him). He took the first few weeks paid and then went unpaid or cut salary, but his work said to do whatever he needed.

[midlandsmumof4]

I think this thread is really sad. We are a little company and we closed for the day when one of our valued members of staff died 3 years ago. His wife passed away a couple of weeks ago and we took a few of hours away to attend her funeral. When my mum & dad passed away in the same week I was given indefinite leave. There are statutory rules regarding leave for funerals I rhinnk.....

[theinet]

when my mum died, i had about 4 days off work. it wasn't enough, i forced myself to go back to be "normal" and feeling guilty about taking time off, in a pressured work environment. my boss even said " i guess you should be over it by now" a week after the funeral.... 6 months later i had to have a fortnight off sick through depression brought on by the bereavment. i would have been better off taking a couple of weeks at the time of the death and not worried - it would have helped me longer term.

[solidgoldbrass]

Some companies treat their employees as expendable components anyway, and policies on bereavement may well reflect this. Unfortunately, particularly in small companies, the senior staff do have to take into account the needs of the business and of all the staff when dealing with bereavement or other personal crises.
Really, it's not that different to a staff member having a physical health problem: there comes a point where you have to decide whether the company can cope with keeping the person's job open any longer.

[capricorn76]

3 days off for the loss of your husband?! Sorry but this is one of the reasons the UK comes bottom of European countries people want to live in in relation to quality of life (heard report today on news). Family/people/relationships are more important than work. If any boss said that I was only entitled to 3 days off for losing my husband I'd walk then probably key his car.

[ToothbrushThief]

thatsenough -I'm so sorry that you are going through this. I don't think you are unreasonable at all.

I think there are two issues here (on the thread) one is concerning money (who pays for your grieving time) and the other is how long do people need to grieve and deal with practicalities.

Trois implied to Upahill that money shouldn't come in the way of grieving. Yet this thread is about her not wishing to take unpaid leave?

I personally would give my staff the time they needed but this is a) because I know all my staff. In a larger company I imagine you do need 'rules' b)I personally backfill for staff absence because we are small enough for me to cope with that and most importantly c) the cost is not paid for by me - only indirectly because I work longer to cover.

I did have one staff member who took 3 weeks for the death of a husband of a sister of her exhusband. That was with a sick note from the GP. I accepted the sickness but obviously we could not survive if every staff member did that.

I'm really horrified by the experiences of people on this thread.

The second issue of how long do you need is such a variable thing..... I have yet to lose a very close family member. I have no idea how I will cope. When it happens, I hope I have the time I need. I love my work so would choose to be there normally. No idea if this will be true then.

[Cloudbase]

Thatsenough, I'm so very sorry for your loss. Please think hard about going to see your GP and getting signed off. There are times when you need to look after yourself, if the people (or employers) around you are not in a position to, or won't help you. You need to grieve properly for your mum, it's an enormous loss whatever your age, and if you don't make space for it now, it will come back to you in the future. In the grand scheme of things, over the course of your whole life, a few days/weeks/months (however long you might need) off work, is just a blip. But you must allow yourself the space to work through this properly. Take care

[thatsenough]

It seems I was wrong - I don't get any paid compassionate leave.

I feel completely let down by my employer and feel that my Mum in their eyes wasn't worth anything.

Looking at this thread it appears that I am the unreasonable one.

[Catslikehats]

Thanks ginnybag

It was a UK company and they are still going very strong, but we were based overseas with local no employment law so even if we wanted to there isn't anything we could do.

As it was DH got another, better job immediately and considers it a lucky escape. Even now I can barely believe that they did it.

[ginnybag]

Queenofdenial I am so sorry.

This might not be anything to think about but if your DH's company are UK based and if they still exist, that's one heck of a tribunal case you've got there.

They were so, so very far out of line it beggars belief!

[tyler80]

Yabu

I think allowances should be made to allow people to attend non family funerals but I think it's reasonable for this time not to be paid.

My public sector employer allows 2 days paid leave for parent/spouse/brother/sister/child, 1 day for other relatives with an extra day if you're in charge of funeral arrangements.

[bemybebe]

I was given 2 months paid leave to support my parents when my dbro suddenly passed away (aged 23). This was by a 'cut-throat' 'shark' american investment bank.
My other company (another american investment bank, not so 'sharky' reputation) gave me 3 months paid leave to look after my mum when she was dyi ng from cancer a few years later...

There are different companies around.

[oldraver]

The company I was working for gave me two weeks paid leave and I know I could of taken as much unpaid leave as I wanted. They also gave paid leave to my friend who I went into work with (they sent her home on the day as she was in a state as well) and also gave us both paid leave for the funeral and inquest. I know someone later took 6months leave when her father died.

[lesley33]

And my friend died very suddenly and unexpectedly. So couldn't have planned for it at all.

[loveglove]

I'm sorry for your loss, I hope you get sorted with a sick note.

I worked for Sainsburys when my mum passed away suddenly and they were brilliant. They gave me the standard CL paid and said to take as long as I needed unpaid after that, and to be fair, they left me alone for a month before anyone asked when I was coming back. I was only just 20 at the time though.

My dad's work were really good - I don't know about the pay situation, but they gave him all the time he needed and a representative came to the funeral from the merchant navy. (He's in the merchant navy and works for shell as an engineer).

[lesley33]

"A parent/child/partner death is totally different to a friend/collegue/someone you know death."

Yes and no. I totally understand companies not giving any paid of time for the death of a friend. But I do think they should be flexible through the use of flexi time, etc. I don't think a boss or colleague can judge how close you are to someone.

A good friend of mine died nearly 6 months ago. It has affected me more than the deaths of some close relatives and tbh I am still struggling (a lot) with grief. But my work let me be flexible with my hours so that I could go to both the funeral and the spreading of the ashes.

[pissovski]

My mum died suddenly (she was ill, but it was not a terminal illness, and she had lived with it for 20 years) aged 64, 2 years ago. DH and I were away at the time, on holiday (luckily in UK). We had to wait nearly 2 weeks for post mortem, as she died at home. I felt in complete limbo for the intervening time, and wouldn't have been any use to work. Fortunately i am a teacher and it was the summer break. I am fairly sure that i would have got 3 days off had it been term time.

When FIL passed away earlier this year, we had had his terminal cancer diagnosis only 5 weeks previously. I only took 2 days off, as i was on supply, (and am now on maternity leave, so i knew we needed the money) and the funeral was in half term. I think i had grieved in the intervening 5 weeks. DH works for local govt and they allowed him 3 days 'special leave' so he could help his family out before his dad died, and another 3 days CL for the funeral time. he also took annual leave which, luckily, is fairly generous.

The grief from both of these hit me again when i had DS in may this year.

my friend's dad died very very suddenly (again in his early 60s) and, as a teacher, she had to get a sick note to have more than 3 days off (term time).

mindthegap you have been very insensitive. My friend and i had no opportunity to "prepare ourselves", and were in our late 20s and very early 30s - not when you 'expect' to lose a parent

[FlumpsRule]

I wouldn't expect paid leave but absolutely think unpaid leave is acceptable if cover can be arranged/ time made up

[Iteotwawki]

I copied & pasted that line, mindthegap , as a preamble to replying. But I found it so crass I deleted it. Suffice it to say that when my mother collapsed and died while walking from one room to another, asking Dad if he wanted a coffee, it was completely unexpected. She was only 60. 

On the other hand I have relatives who have been chronically ill with heart and lung disease for decades, still living independently in their 70s and 80s. If we could predict death so confidently my life as a doctor would be easier!

I was very lucky to be told "go home, be with your family, come back when ready" (NHS). I have no idea what was allocated to bereavement leave and what to sick leave, but I was off for over 3 weeks helping with arrangements and spending time with my close family, remembering Mum and just being with them. 

Over 10 years later and I am not "back to normal". I never will be.