To be fed up that nursery taught DD "sorry"?

[tallulah]

... without an appreciation of what it actually entails?

I don't know how other 4 yos are but my DD has taken to "sorry" like a hail mary. :( Nursery insist they say sorry, which would be OK if she meant it, but at home if we tell her off/ ask her to stop doing something she just blithely says "sorry" and then carries on doing it. It's as if she thinks that the word is enough to absolve her and she doesn't need to actually modify her behaviour in any way.

It is driving us demented. I would rather she didn't say sorry at all but that's going against what nursery is doing.

Any suggestions?

[youarekidding]

I think my DS 6 totally gets what it means.

Yesterday a child accused him of doing something. (he didn't but other child pushed/hit his head and I saw - he was about to tell when realised I'd seen it). Cue the wailing child (7) demanding an apology from DS. (this child is one who never says sorry or will admit to doing wrong). He refused repeating he did nothing.

Eventually he said 'sorry for not not doing anything when you wanted to me to so I would get into trouble' < in a very sarcy voice>

The other child said 'thankyou for apologising' .

Think this does show that to some its just a word - but agree its as much (if not more) up to parents to teach the meaning not just the word.

[bruffin]

Too many kids think they can say sorry and get away with what ever they were doing, which is why the op is no bu.
My dc,s are now teens and do have lovely manners. I am often told how polite they are. I always insisted on please and thankyous but I don't agree with forcinginsincere sorries.

[penguin73]

I am frequently astounded at school at the amount of teenagers who will say 'I need a pen' and look surprised when told that it would be more polite to ask to borrow one using the word please, similarly the lack of thank yous and apologies when they do something. It seems a standard response for some if the bump into someone/accidentally hurt them is 'I didn't mean to do it' rather than 'I'm sorry, are you ok?'.
Reading the OP and some of the responses I see why this is the case :(

[thumbwitch]

Again - if everyone followed that path, no one would ever say sorry,please or thank you - because no one would be taught to do so and so no one would hear anyone else saying it and poof! Manners would be dead. And it's also the case that people following that path are simply relying on others to do their manners-teaching for them.

[porcamiseria]

soooooooooooooooo BU!
sounds you resent nursery and leap on any chance to criticise?

[Hormoneoverload]

I take your point again, but the two children I know whose parents leave it entirely up to them when they say sorry, please and thank you still rarely use them at the age of six and five. Dd finds it difficult to understand, frankly.

[Again]

Children who aren't told to say sorry, please and thank you still say them, just not as frequently and not as insincerely. They use these words because they hear people using them and in my opinion that it the best way to learn not by control.

[thumbwitch]

INteresting responses. DS is 3.6 - he says thank you automatically now, although he usually has to be prompted to say please even now, despite having been taught it from a very early age.

However, he understands to say sorry. He "gets" it. If he hurts someone, even accidentally, he will be genuinely contrite, and say sorry immediately.
If I have to make him say sorry for doing something naughty though, that's a different story entirely - I don't think he "gets" that at all.

[TandB]

Surely a child develops understanding of words like sorry, please and thank you over time, by using them and seeing people's reaction to them.

I wouldn't have thought that most small children really understand the niceties around polite words - they just need to know that these are words that are appropriate to use in certain contexts. Just as they understand that saying hello is appropriate for meeting someone and saying bye is appropriate for leaving.

If you wait until they have developed a clear understanding of the words then it will surely take that much longer for their use to become second-nature.

My not-quite 2 year old has been saying sorry for quite a while, sometimes when prompted but sometimes spontaneously. He always has to be prompted to say thank you but is starting to get please.

[cory]

Again Sun 05-Jun-11 23:08:41
"I'm shocked that there are so many people who do not understand that forcing children to say sorry does not help them to empathise it's more likely to make them angry.

I recently started asking ds to say please and thank you (he's 3.11). He said it in such a fake voice sugary sweet voice and it was driving me nuts, so I said he didn't have to say it to me unless he wanted to and that I like doing things for him."

This assumes that it is all about getting your child to feel the right thing. I think many of us feel that once children get old enough to start negotiating the outside world (playschool, school, playdates) it's not just about how they feel- it is about how they make other people feel. And about how they are perceived by other people.

As a foreigner, the basic manners (when to say please or sorry) were what really made it difficult for me to manage social contacts in the first few years. I came across as abrupt and uncaring when I didn't mean to. I want my children to have an easier ride.

Saying sorry or please means "I can be bothered to use good manners with you". Neglecting it once you get to a certain age spells "I can't be bothered for you".

[TotallyLovely]

How on earth did she get to the age of 4 without knowing the word sorry? Didn't YOU ever teach it to her? It's not all up to the nursery you know. I get the impression you don't want her to ever be in the wrong (or to admit to it) and that is why you are opposed to the word and haven't bothered to teach her it yourself. If she hasn't quite grasped the full understanding of it yet then TELL HER!

[bruffin]

My DD is the opposite and actually got an award from her form teacher for being "the girl who always says sorry" because she says it all the time and often doesn't mean it.

[whoneedssleepanyway]

I think a 4 year old should be able to understand what sorry means and use it appropriately...in fact most 4 year olds I know realise that they have done something wrong if they are told to apologise and then don't want to say it as a result...

YABU

[bruffin]

YANBU

I understand completely where you are coming from. At one stage my DS wouldn't say sorry unless he meant it, but he would go away and think about it and always come back and apologize sincerely.

[Hormoneoverload]

Also, it makes it so much easier for children to socialise if they have a basic understanding of when to use "manners words". Pre school, school, play dates are all smoothed with good manners. I have experienced children at four and five who aren't asked to use them and it's not just the adults who use them. Sorry might end up meaning "I know I should be sorry,even though secretly I'm not". But how many of those do I use with dh when I've behaved a bit unreasonably but am still smarting from what he's done. I want to move on from the incident and sorry helps that to happen, even moves me towards the point I actually feel sorry.

[Hormoneoverload]

I don't have any need as the caregiver who is organising the household to get out of the house on time to say please when asking dd to get her shoes on or thank you when she does it. But I do. I am not suggesting by it that I am asking her to do anything ghat she shouldn't do without a please. But it's a courtesy and often a recognition that sometimes it inconveniences her. It is more pleasant to be around people who say please and thank you even when the things are part of our role. Also, sorry performs different purposes at different ages. Ds, 2 knows it is part of the routine when behaviour is unacceptable, along with being removed from the play temporarily. Dd, 5, knows and understands more about it and we are on the part of the learning curve where she is learning that trotting out sorry multiple times won't always prevent the consequence of her action and that sorry implies an intent to modify behaviour. Manners oil society and it isn't always as simple as what the child understands or wants.

[SouthStar]

I agree with you there Again as their care-giver its our job. But some children need a little nudge with how to ask for things.
My ds speech isnt great. He is 3 and half and has just started speech therapy. When he is after something he says, I WANT.... so if I dont encourage him to say please can I have.... then how else he is going to learn that I WANT just isnt the correct way to ask for something. Maybe at the age he is now it isnt that much of a big deal but if I dont correct it he will still be saying I WANT in a few years because noone has told him otherwise and he has got the things he wanted.

As advised by his speech therapist repetition is the most effect way that children learn. He has now got to the stage of saying "mummy, I have ..... Please.

Its not controlling at all, its called modelling.

[Again]

Btw my DS does say please and thank you to strangers, but that comes more from listening to us than anything else.

I just don't feel that he needs to say 'please can you get me something to eat' or 'please can you get that thing that is up too high for me'. If it's something that he needs my help to do, by virtue of the fact that he is much much younger and I am his care-giver, then it's my job to do it without expecting a please. It is extremely controlling to ask a child to say please before you will do anything for them

[SouthStar]

My dd is two and knows what sorry means, when she does something like snatch a toy from her brother she is told to say sorry then we ask her what she is sorry for. If she knows the words like, hit, push etc she will say, if not she shows us with her hands what she has done wrong.
The same for my ds who is 3!
How on earth have you never taught her what sorry means, surely she hasnt got to 4 without doing a thing wrong!?

[worraliberty]

Kids will learn to be genuinely sorry eventually but imo if they're not made to say the word from an early age, they'll take longer to understand what sorry means.

It's basic manners and something I would be very embarrassed about if my children didn't have.

[snailoon]

ALLINABINBAG How on earth is putting someone in a room until they give in going to make them genuinely sorry? Would this work on you? Your child gives in when she can't hold out any longer.

[PumpkinBones]

ballstoit Sun 05-Jun-11 22:16:44
Social problems are more likely to be caused by being cared for by adults who have little or no understanding of children's cognitive development

How many parents can honestly say they have researched children's cognitive development?!

[snailoon]

Again-- I agree with you, except I'm not surprised. People are obsessed with getting tiny children to come out with the right word. Often they are showing off what great parents they are to have trained their kids so well. Insincere apologies are really annoying. Kids need to learn to lie (gratitude for hideous presents for example), but only after they can understand and sympathise in a fairly mature way.

[worraliberty]

Again that's up to you entirely but your child wouldn't get anything from me without saying please and thank you. Therefore, it might cause a problem when he's at a friend's house or nursery/school etc.

IME children (or at least the ones I've come into contact with) can empathise from as young as 2yrs if they've done something they really didn't mean to do. It's not unheard of for a small child to come and kiss you after they've accidentally whacked you across the head with a toy or something lol.

[fuzzpigFriday]

YABRidiculous

IME the words (sorry, please, thank you etc) come before the understanding for most DCs, and that usually works out just fine.