Overturning an Adoption? (and some other legal things)

[Lilka]

When I have a bit of time, I sometimes scan judgements from the court of appeal and pick out any interesting care/adoption related ones to read. I've learned a lot about how the courts make their decisions, adoption law and also heard about some very interesting adoption/fostering cases this way.

Anyway, this morning I had a look and there are 3 interesting (to me anyway) judgments there now, 1 of which concerns overturning an adoption order. I felt a bit conflicted after reading that judgement and wondered what other adoptive parents (or adoptees or social workers or anyone reall) feel about how permanent adoption orders are and when or if you think it's ever okay to overturn one?

The bones of the case in question were that the relationship between an adoped girl and her adoptive parents had totally broken down, the girl was clearly very troubled and now in care for good, the adoptive mother didn't want any more contact or anything. So after talking with a few professionals the local authority thought that it would be in the childs best interests if the adoption order was overturned. The adoptive mother agreed, so did the Guardian etc. Because there's no legal provision to overturn an adoption in these circumstances, they had to go to the High Court and ask them whether the court would allow hearings for an adoption to be overturned in these circumstances or not.

The judges turned them down, and they had quite a few reasons why they didn't think it would be a good idea to change the reasons why an adoption order could be overturned and that it wasn't a good idea in that case to take things any further.

As I said, I feel very conflicted by the idea that an adoption could be overturned at all, apart from the very specific circumstances it's already allowed to be overturned in (which is if the correct legal procedure wasn't followed or if a mother everyone thought was relinquishing, was actually being coerced/forced to sign away her rights). The only case I'm aware of in recent years was one a couple of years ago, where the court (because of the LA's mistake) didn't give notice to a birth mother of the final hearing (wrong address). So the birth mother was denied her final opportunity to appeal as she had the right to do. She appealed the adoption order and the whole adoption order was overturned (months after the celebration hearing etc) and it all had to go back to court again while the courts decided if she could appeal the placement order as well (she couldn't and the adoption was refinalised but correctly the second time).

Anyway, I can't judge anything about this case because there was very little background in the judgement, but in general...I feel that the adoption orders for my kids are as final as giving birth ie. no way back, no reversing to what it was before. I'm the legal parent for good. That doesn't mean I wouldn't ever disrupt, because I know full well that some adoptees need to go back into care for safety's sake or other serious reasons. I've seen enough disruptions and been close enough myself with my DD1 many years ago, to know that sometimes children can't live at home. But I'm talking about the actual legal parenthood bit here. Even if my children had to go into care, my view is that they're mine legally, and I will always be their legal mum whether it's safe for them to live with/have contact with me or not.

But what if adoptiove parents WANT to overturn if, what if it seems to be in a childs best interests to overturn it? I don't know. My gut still says, you can't overturn giving birth because the relationship has permanently broken down, no matter how much everyone might wish it that way. But I appreciate that some poeple might feel differently?


Under what circumstances should an adoption order be able to be overturned in?

[TeenAndTween]

You may do better to start your own thread, but have sent you a PM.

However, I have just noticed that you mention 911 so I guess you are not in the UK so legal stuff won't be the same as here.

[Momtofour16]

[Momtofour16]

Anyone to have an adoption go so horribly wrong ? We adopted a child without know all the horrible background information. Had I known the things that happened I would never have considered this adoption as we had already adopted our three grandchildren ! We would have never put them in the position we all are in now which is this is a soon to be sixteen year old who is terrorizing our household . She has been put in a behavioral facilities twice by us and no clue before we got her where she had been placed ! She has tried on several occasions to hurt our now 10 yr old daughter ( once tried to drop her over our twelve foot bannister as well as trying to drown her ) ! I have tried all I know to do to help her but am now at the point where we are in fear for our lives ! We are constantly watching over our shoulders and watching out for the younger kids if she gets mad over something she will call 911 and report I am being mean to her ! I don't feel like we are able to give her the things she needs as she refuses to continue on with therapy after placement saying she isn't starting her story all over again ! I just want my kids to be able to have as normal a life as possible considering they also came from horrible abusive backgrounds it doesn't seem fair that we have brought this into their lives 😭😭 We go to see the judge next week for an incouragable petition as she has started her behaviors back up of defiance and being unsafe around the other kids ! She also is a cutter but mostly attention seeking as it's usually always superficial ! Even so we know this is a cry for help and here we are with no support system on our side ! Anyone have a similar story ? What was the outcome ?

[Kr1stina]

Me too

[Devora]

Mine did too, familyvonstrop. I really miss her.

[thefamilyvonstrop]

Karma, I'm sorry to hear how you were treated. I know it's no consolation to you, but adoption nowadays is far more sympathetic to the adopters identity and I hope adopters on the whole are far more sensitive to the overwhelming losses our children have suffered.
I can understand your frustration at having to use a name that was thrust on you and that you don't feel any links too.
On a slight aside, my heart jumped when I opened the thread and saw Lilka's name pop up before I realised its an old thread. I do hope she is ok.

[Kewcumber]

Adoption is not a service for people who can't have children these days so you don't need to feel sorry for those of us who can't have birth children.

I can see how angry you are and that feeling your name was stolen is very important to you and I'm not sure how you resolve that.

Names are extremely important to many people but not to others. DS would be extremely unhappy to go through his childhood with a different surname to me - its one of the things that he feels "marks" us as family and makes him like all the other children in his class, he wouldn't deal well with being different to all the other children and he's already different enough in his eyes.

Of course if he ever wanted to resume his birth surname I would support him but the only way for that to happen is for a name change which it seems in your case isn't enough.

[karma9]

Hi.
Thank you for all so much your replies, It truly helps to know someone is listening

I have had counselling :) I would like to add I am not attacking the posts or the thread, I am angry at government and law - Just wanted to express to people that dont understand the damage of adoption gone wrong and, how something that may seem as menial as just a name can have a profound effect. <br /> <br /> I have also changed my name by deed pole but, my adoption certificate stands as is - Deed pole is merely an allowing` myself to be called by a different name by banks, the council etc.... this causes a fair few problems regarding ID proof in other areas - so kind of a wasted £33 (you only get six declaration forms too - I would have to apply each and every time I needed to contact someone else - The forms sit in a drawer)

• In an ideal world I would overturn the adoption and ask my daughters consent in changing hers...
  
  I probably sound so annoyed in my former post? Truth is I am - Its unfair that even your name can be stolen - a name may just be a name to some, for me it feels like I have no say in who I was born as.... I would have to get married and have my daughter adopted to my spouse to be free of it.... So adoption leading to adoption..... Its crazy
  
  Two adults can make a mistake and separate permanently but, nasty people and the law making a mistake becomes an Oh Well, Live with it its unjust.
  
  I agree that the law is not so eager to change because there probably would be an influx of applications to have identities returned but, maybe that should identify the truth - the law should stop farming out children - For a start adoption, statistically is not the happy ever after story propaganda expresses it to be - a little google research proves as such
  
  I am a firm believer to assist the broken families and/or to raise children in foster homes, no need to completely remove an identity when providing a loving home - I am sorry for those who cannot have children but, to only consider having someone else`s child on the term your name is given?? - Its bizarre the law allows to give and take names but not return one.
  Than you all again :)

[FelicityLemon]

Yes, should have been clearer which post I was responding to, I was addressing the principle in general rather than the specific situation of an adult wishing to overturn an adoption.

[Kewcumber]

That was a minor child felicity it isn't possible to reverse the adoption of an adult anymore than it is for you as an adult to "divorce" your biological parents. You are in law independent of any other adult and can choose to have nothing to do with them - though I understand the need to mentally/symbolically to distance yourself from parents you felt were abusive, the law cannot do that for you now.

[FelicityLemon]

It's extremely rare but adoptions can be overturned. The child in this case succeeded in revoking an adoption order www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2015/2316.html

[Devora]

Karma, I'm also sorry to read your post. There was a recent thread in which Spero - who is a family law barrister - explained why annulling an adoption is not possible. If our law allowed adults to divorce their parents our family courts would be even more clogged up than they already are. Plus it brings no material benefit, since an adult is independent of their parents anyway.

Is it possible that, in any case, annulling your adoption would not bring the peace you seek? I wonder if counselling might work better (though maybe you've already tried that)? As Kristina says, you can certainly change your name - it's very straightforward and easy to do.

[Kr1stina]

Karma, I'm sorry to hear about what has happened to you . But this is an old thread ,so you are more likely to get replies if you start a new one .

I understand you want to change you name . I assume that you know you can do this very easily, by deed poll ?

Trying to get your adoption annulled , even if it were possible, would take you a very long time and cost a great deal of money . I wonder if you might be better to put this time, money and energy into getting some counselling or therapy to help you come to terms with your past .

[karma9]

As an adoptee now aged 41 I am wanting to annul my adoption based upon the facts I was raised by extremely narcissistic people who came to realise I was not the perfect little toy they imagined I would be.

I had attachment issues, behavioural problems and was in no way a personality match - removed from siblings aged five to be given a new family and expected to settle in and be well behaved - I had absolutely no say in this arrangement. My life was decided by a clueless system of arrogant ignorance as to what other people thought was in my best interest. The more I protested being within the life forced upon me (bear in mind I was 5,6,7,8,9) the more I was hated and bullied into submission

As an adult and many disturbing memories to boot, It would be safe to say, it does not matter as to whether annulment makes sense to some or not (I mean that in the nicest possible way) - As the adoptee, there should be a means to return to a name you were born with and it should be a simple process - I have to live with a name of which I was not born with, A name the arrogant ignorant system gave me and separated me from my birth siblings that I had five precious years with then snatched away without my consent - A traumatic everything concerning the name that was given to me why should I have to pass on that name to my children?

Not just my life ruined but, my siblings also - Them being sent to school aged 8 and 10, me being kept behind to be snuck away behind their backs - Its sickening in so many forms - Adoption is and was never the amazing story of happy ever after.

An adoptee is stripped of any rights from the onset - even their own name - its so simple for the unaffected to um and ah at what they dont know - to ask the adoptee, the affected, and accept they have finally taken back a piece of themselves alongside all else that was stolen, what right does anyone and law have to deny this?

[FamiliesShareGerms]

Adoption has to be as permanent as giving birth, hasn't it? Ie in certain circumstances a parent may relinquish parental rights or the state may decide to take those away, but the fact that an adoption has taken place cannot be undone.

[Sleepshmeep]

Thanks both for your thoughts, and apols for delay in responding.

I guess I am wondering who and how an adoptee (particularly teens) might get support in working through their feelings before taking any drastic action like running away; if they are feeling torn, with split loyalties etc.

I could imagine many not wanting to upset their adoptive parents by discussing the extent of their feelings with them, however good their relationship.

Perhaps older-adopted children with strong birth family connections, should have independent support/info offered in some way? I know decisions around adoption are usually clear cut, but not all, and some may be the victim of circumstance (thinking illness, finance, poor legal representation etc) and there may well be wider birth family members in the background too. Circumstances can and do change, as 3ismylot's story so clearly shows.

Children/young people in these kinds of situations may be rare, but my feeling is we still have a duty to support the minority, as they may be the ones to slip through the net.

Sorry Llika if I kinda killed your thread! It is a really interesting topic, and poignant to me. I know of teens I would dearly love to know have someone independent checking in on them around these kinds of issues. It's hard.

[Lilka]

As Devora said, an adopted teenager has no legally recognised relationship with their birth family, so it's legally the same as if they wanted to go live with their friends parents.

Up to a certain age, their wish means nothing, especially as some children will express this wish without seriously meaning it (like my DD2 who has told me several times since the age of 8 that she wants to live with her mum, yet has been in a full reunion since February and made no moves whatsoever to move in) and most adoptive parents will simply empathise with their childrens feelings but tell them that they can't live with their birth parents again.

If an older teenager wanted to live with their birth parents...well, if they just upped and moved/ran away, the authorities will not usually intervene if the teen is aged 16 or 17 (perhaps in exceptional circumstances but not normally). A younger teen I think might be different, I guess a 13 year old would be removed by force if necessary, but 15 is on the line (and I guess if the adoptive parents did not wish to oppose the move, it would be okay). Given the birth parents have no legal or parental rights, I imagine social services would have to be involved with any teen under 16 in this decision. Over 16 again I think that might be a different story.

The teen probably wouldn't have any advocate. There wouldn't be any legal proceedings unless they are officially in local authority care, and most adopted teens aren't in care.

[Devora]

Sleepshmeep, adoption is permanent. Which means, I think I'm right in saying, that if an adoptee wishes to go and live with a birth parent (after the adoption order has been made final), they are in essentially the same position as any child who wishes to live with an adult who is not legally their parent.

My guess is that this occurs most often in three situations. First would be where an older child is adopted who remembers and wants to be back with their birth family - in which case it has recently been decided that they should not remain with that family and the task is to smooth their transition. Second is where an adopted child has direct contact with their birth family, and I imagine it is quite rare for direct contact to take place where a child is that unresolved. Third is where an adopted teenager makes contact with their birth family and wants to return to them. In which case, they are relatively close to adult status and being able to make their own choice over where they live, and I doubt the authorities would see benefit in intervening.

[Sleepshmeep]

3ismylot's story is so sad, but so good to hear you were successfully reunited with loving parents.

Sorry if this is naive, but it has made me wonder what actually happens if an adoptee is in contact with and consistently maintains they want to be parented by a birth family member (who pehaps has since become capable)?

What age would it be appropriate for a child's views to be taken into consideration in this way, and perhaps overide an adopted parent's view? Who would be their advocate or available to work through their feelings?

Aware this must be super-sensitive topic for adoptive parents, who in the main, are amazing people.

I have relatives adopted both in and out of my wider family, so an interest from a personal perspective.

[Lilka]

NanaNina I check for adoption/care proceedings judgements on Family Law Week every so often, because I find it fascinating and it helps my understanding of adoption law. It can also be very useful when there's a media case (given the media often find out about cases when they get to the court of appeal) because the court judgement is so much better than a newspaper report.

If you google 'family law week' it's the first result, make sure you're on their judgements page. They have every public appeals court judgement.

Everyone lots of really great points.

Something I think I like the sound of, is that quite a few US states have adult adoption, so an adult can adopt another adult subject to some legal restrictions. It's a much easier process than adopting a child because the adult adoptee in already independent. No need for a homestudy, you just have to apply and the adoptee's consent can override most objections.

Some birth parents have adopted their (adult) birth children back again in this manner, but also quite a few foster families adopt their former foster children (whom they fostered for years but were not permitted to adopt because of their birth parents objections or social services or some other barrier).

I can't think of any obvious reason to oppose adult adoption. It would have a lot of benefits for people who grow up in abusive families and find their real parents in their short or long term foster carers, or even don't find people they would consider parents until adulthood. It would at the same time be a way for birth parents to regain legal parenthood without reversing the original adoption (and the effect that has on the permanence of all adoption orders) although I know readoption isn't the same as reversing an adoption. What would you think of a law that allowed your mother and her husband to adopt you and become your parents 3ismylot ? I understand if that wouldn't feel right to you, but it just struck my mind as a possiblity

[NanaNina]

Thanks for providing the link Ilka (I never know how clever people can do that!) and it was interesting reading the judgement. Presumably you just put "Family Law" into Google. Have never thought to do this, but as you say when you have time, it could be interesting.

I think in a way it is a matter of semantics really because whether or not the Adoption Order remains in place, the relationship between the girl and the adopters has completely broken down and so the "Adopters" are "Adopters" in name only. I am surprised that the LA went so far as the High Court with this case and wonder if they thought that somehow removing the status of the adoptive parents would be beneficial to the girl in question, almost like a divorce.

Before I read the judgement I wondered what the legal status of this girl would be, given that PR remained with the adoptive parents. A Care Order would be absolutely essential in such a case wouldn't it, as birthparents could turn up to "re-claim" their daughter as it were. However 3ismylot your story is so sad, and you tell it in such a rational way, and in your case, it may well have been the case that your birthmother and her husband would have been the most suitable people to care for you. I absolutely agree that you should be entitled to your original birth certificate.

[Italiangreyhound]

3ismylot I am so sorry to hear your story. I completely agree with you that children should have the right to have their birth certificate changed in relation to the situation you describe.

[3ismylot]

I think it should be possible in certain circumstances and that if an adopted child wants it reversed and their original Birth certificate to be reinstated (and the Birth parents agree to it) then it should be possible.

I say this as someone who was adopted in the 80s with my Birth Mother put under extreme pressure and threats to give me up and then being adopted by a narc Mother and enabler Father who made my life hell (including making me live with an adopted Brother who went on to sexually abuse me) and have been NC with them for nearly a year.

I am now back in contact with my Birth Mother and her husband who she met 6 months after the adoption and is proud for me to call him Dad and wishes he had met her sooner so that he could have raised me. I have a Brother and Sister and would love to have my original Birth certificate as my legal one as seeing those names as my "parents" make me feel sick!

I have respect for people who choose to adopt and understand that my situation is pretty unusual but I have to live the rest of my life being reminded of them everytime I have to hand over my Birth certificate (luckily very rarely) and I understand that children brought up in abusive homes with Birth parents will feel the same but it isnt the same as the people on that certificate of mine are nothing to do with me either biologically or emotionally.

[Devora]

What a fascinating case, Lilka. My immediate instinct is that the harm caused by making adoption orders revocable by far outweighs the benefit to this particular child (poor, poor kid). But I would say that, wouldn't I?