Big dilemma for DD - what would you do?

[Blackenedsoul]

DD has accepted an offer for her Uni of choice to study Media in September. She’s been looking forward to going, had planned to live at home and travel the 20 minutes in every day.

She had a part time job for a few months in a local office attached to a very small but very busy manufacturing company. She’s very well thought of and works in the office on a Saturday, doing admin, answering enquiries, emails, booking appointments etc.

Today they’ve offered her a full time, permanent post in the office and have offered to start training her up in the use of their accounts systems etc, give her more responsibility. The salary is 18k to start rising to around a max of 25k once fully trained.

This has come as a bolt from the blue, DD really enjoys the job and thinks she’d be happy doing it full time but at the same time was also happy to go off and have the Uni experience, make new friends and study and have fun.

She’s aware that lots of students leave Uni and end up falling into admin roles vey much like this and is now wondering whether bothering with Uni is worth it.

We’ve told her the decision is entirely hers but she’s really finding it hard to decide.

So, the great of mumsnet - what would you do?

[GoWalkabout]

Zombie thread

[CornishPastyDownUnder]

Another vote for defer here..a few of us from college did-i got 2years in Europe working in uncles hotel,by the time I started uni id had a blast,learnt so much workwise&had savings,but socially it was invaluable&pretty much fluent in the language..made me determined to leave UK once id graduated too(I came to Oz).
Another friend went to Central Ameria and then worked in the local m&s and another mate joined her then partner in Germany..I love the idea of my2 doing the same-theres no rush..life is far too serious once you get on the work/career treadmill..enjoy your youth.

[sherbetmelon]

Go to uni! It's so hard to know at that age what you really want to do and a degree will open up opportunities later down the line that she probably hasn't even considered yet. Uni all day long.

[mathanxiety]

A training contract with a firm leading to professional qualifications.


There is no mention of a contract.

There is no mention of professional qualifications.

This is all pure conjecture on the part of many, many posters, which has been repeated so often that it has gained its own momentum.

The DD is to be taught the company's own 'system'. She is a loyal young woman who will end up burying herself in a family firm instead of making decisions and challenging herself.

[Bythemillpond]

I think a year off to pursue what she really wants to do. Do a lot of temp work in various industries. And talk to as many people she can to see what different routes there are into doing what she actually wants to do.
She might find she does not need to go to uni or find that the degree she needs to be doing is something that she needs to leave home to do.

I think both options she has are not great.
She might find that a media degree at her local uni is what she needs to do or she could find the media degree was a waste of money. Better to find out before wasting her time snd her money.

[ILoveShula]

I know a TA with a PhD.

[RachelRaven]

@Cam2020

I also don't understand why simeone with a degree would be a TA and not do a one year PGCE to become a teacher - unless the undergrad degree wasn't one that qualified for PGCE, which would somewhat prove my point about soft degrees?

They are very different jobs.

We also, at one point, had a lot of teaching assistants who also had a pgce. They just didn't want to teach.

[FinallyHere]

@PlanDeRaccordement

what opportunities are there left really?

A higher apprenticeships with time off to study for a degree with a ready made cohort doing the same subjects

https://careers.sky.com/earlycareers/apprenticeships/

A training contract with a firm leading to professional qualifications.

It's entirely possible that someone thinking of maybe doing a degree in media studies had not even considered these alternatives.

The current job offer would provide some time to look around and apply with experience and a glowing reference.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@FinallyHere

I agree the job offered is a dead end job, it is also in a sector (administration/secretarial) that has been experiencing job losses since the 1990s and the trend is expected to accelerate over the next decade. (From same report I just posted). A few jobs will remain, the parts that can’t be automated by AI, but with an over supply of experienced workers the pay will stagnate and or drop.

Yes she could take a year off to decide...but I personally would not advise that. If she decides to go to Uni a year later, she’s then a year behind paying off the debts...and in U.K. I think they last for 30yrs regardless of how old you are when you start your degree..... If it were preCovid I would agree with you but with Covid...what opportunities are there left really? She cannot travel, or go and teach English abroad, she can’t work on a cruise ship or as a coordinator at an exotic resort. Everywhere, the job market is the worst for under 25s than it ever has been and worse than for all other age groups, even the over 50s.

Yes she has the offer of a FT job...but it’s not a job that has long term value in my opinion. It’s dead end in a dying skill. Rather like a 1910 youth deferring mechanics school for a year so they can drive horse drawn coaches and get experience handling horses on the local estate or for a local farmer. Said 1910 youth would be better off just going to school and learning how to drive and repair cars.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

Yes my direct experience is in my own career field, however, qualification inflation is widespread and not limited to Aerosoace engineering or even STEM fields. In fact, it is and will be more extreme in areas that traditionally have not required degrees..because there is more scope for inflation in demand for higher formal qualifications.

“Working Futures 2017-2027 provides a comprehensive and detailed picture of the UK labour market, focusing on employment prospects for up to 75 industries, 369 occupations, 6 broad qualification levels, gender and employment status.”

See www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2020/02/11/youll-need-more-and-better-qualifications-to-get-a-job-in-2027/?sh=51f5e71347bd

And for full report:

Working Futures 2017-2027: Long-run labour market and skills projections for the UK. Main report February 2020. Qualifications starts on p121. Key points are that currently those with level 4 qualifications or higher are most likely to be continuously employed. But, the average level of qualifications held is rising in all occupations. By 2027, around 55.2% of all people in employment are expected to be qualified at level 4 (GCSEs are level 2, A levels are level 3) and above, whilst the proportion of people with level 1 or no formal qualifications at all is expected to fall to 10.6%.

Available at

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863506/Working_Futures_Main_Report.pdf

[FinallyHere]

@PlanDeRaccordement

I get that the aerospace industry does major in formal qualifications. I work in media, I have loads of degrees (BA, MSc., MBA) and work along side and for people who have none.

My suggestion is not that OPs daughter decides now, once and forever between a dead end job and university. It is to take a year out, get some business experience and maturity, to have time to look around for other opportunities.

There are now higher apprenticeships which include time off to study for a degree and a cohort of people doing the same thing. There are traineeships leading to professional qualifications.

Uni will still be there when she knows enough to be really interested in an area.

Why incur debts now ?

[KirstenBlest]

@PlanDeRaccordement, you are talking about aerospace engineering.
I have worked for plenty of organisations where managers do not have doctorates or even first degrees.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

The salary is 18k to start rising to around a max of 25k once fully trained.

Part of my doubts about the job route is whether or not this is in the employment contract or not? If it’s just a promise that after some undetermined number of years, the salary might go as high as £25k....then really the offer is only for £18k for FT work. That is not much.

OP, if your DD chooses the job route, ensure that the employment contract clearly states that her salary is Yr1 £18k, then Yrx or after attainment of certification. Y, will rise to £25k. If it’s not written in her contract that it will happen, then it’s an illusory carrot just thrown in to tempt her into accepting an £18k job. If it’s not in writing, then say three years from now and she’s at £18,500k and she asks about where is the £25k? They can legally and truthfully say that £25k was “the Max” and not a concrete promise so she can accept the extra £500/yr or find another job....

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@KirstenBlest

Accountants are not glorified bean counters. CIMA is often a way into management.

The downside - month ends, quarter ends, year ends.

CIMA was a way into management for people who are now in their late 40s and older. When thinking about what will be valued 20 years from now, you can’t just cut and paste what a 45yr old did twenty years ago in 2001 and expect that to still be applicable advice for an 18yr old to acquire and be useful to them twenty years from now in 2041.

In my career field (Aerospace Engineering), Ive seen qualification inflation in such that you cannot even enter management now without a doctorate. When I first started, it was made clear to me I needed at least a masters. As a young intern, I worked for managers who had only bachelors degrees. Mid-career for me, the expectation changed from masters to doctorate. I was already management by then and was thankful I had not stopped after my masters because the lack of the PhD would have meant I would have topped out in my field at age 32. Unable to go any higher....

So not only can you not point to the CVs of today’s 50yr old CEOs and upper managers think copying their education levels will give today’s 18yr old the same opportunity, you have to project and think what will be expected twenty years from now when that 18yr old is 38?

[Modestandatinybitsexy]

I did a similar degree joint with English and I've never earned more than £24k despite having managerial roles and experience of 5+ years in each role. I'm now pt working around the kids and not sure I'll ever earn above 25k

[Cam2020]

I also don't understand why simeone with a degree would be a TA and not do a one year PGCE to become a teacher - unless the undergrad degree wasn't one that qualified for PGCE, which would somewhat prove my point about soft degrees?

[Cam2020]

I dont agree with this. I’ve found the opposite to be true. A degree is now required in jobs where they didn't use to be at all.

I agree, but usually RG unis. I'm an EA and to get anywhere you generally need a decent degree from a decent university a lot of the time. That's not a job you'd typically associate with with requiring a degree, or a job people would typically call a career! I'd say 80% of my current and former/colleagues who have gone on to have decent careers as EAs or even diversified from that, have RG degrees - those without have got 'stuck' and hit a ceiling.

Some companies I've worked or interviewed at will only employ people from certain universities across the board.

Obviously, this is all anecdotal and people have other experiences and insights, but this is what I have observed and influences my judgement that no degree (and no student debt) is better than a crap degree. Start in a job and take opportunities and training where you can that could lead to a professional qualification.

[AbsolutelyPatsy]

it is a tough job market and the more qualifications the better,

[iamthesandstorm]

If we have got to the stage where administration jobs need a degree we really have gone wrong. I speak as someone who has an administration job..It's madness.

[RachelRaven]

Degrees are becoming meaningless these days because of the saturation of frankly non-degree subjects from crap former polytechnics
I dont agree with this. I’ve found the opposite to be true. A degree is now required in jobs where they didn't use to be at all. In the high school I work in, all teaching assistants have a degree, all admin staff have a degree. About ten years ago the head said previously she would never dream of getting someone with a degree in these roles, but now she has her pick of applicants.

[Bramblecrumble]

Another vote for taking the job. Media studies is one so many people do and it's not worth it. I was sold the dream of making friends and having fun at university, but I was mostly depressed. I'm not alone in that.

[LosingMyMarblesRun]

There is more than one path in life, and the ability to be flexible in the face of changing circumstances and give yourself space to explore all options, think outside the box, etc. These are valuable skills as well.

[iamthesandstorm]

@Cam2020. I could not agree more. It feels like everyone is expected to go to uni....but if everyone does it really does become pointless.

[Cam2020]

I know uni is eye-wateringly expensive these days but there are some disturbingly anti-education sentiments coming out of this thread, if you ask me. At this stage it wouldn't surprise me if someone came on and started extolling the virtues of attending the 'School of Life' followed by the 'University of Hard Knocks'. hmm

I don't think its anti education per se, but not pro soft subjects like media studies. Had the OP's daughter wabted to study Geography or History etc at a RG, I think the answers would have been different. 'Degrees' are becoming meaningless these days because of the saturation of frankly non-degree subjects from crap former polytechnics. The fact they're 'degrees' and charged at 9k a year is scandalous.

I'm sure someone's going to come along and call me a snob, but it's true.

As for the 'uni experience', nothing to stop young people getting a house share and having fun.

[AbsolutelyPatsy]

unless they actually gave her qualifications rather than a promise of promotion, i would advise she gains qualifications, be it by a degree or by an apprenticeship, is she can find one.